King of the Hill, pleco edition ?

[Mark H.]

I bought 2 lines of super red plecos (3 fish each line) about 3 months ago. While they quarantined, I set up 2 new 40 breeders and decorated them similarly, sand, wood, caves etc. Each tank was aged a month with fritzyme-7 and 6 corydoras to keep cycled.

Anyway, one tank is fine with 1-male, 2- females breeding away

The problem tank: 2 of the three plecos died after about a month ( 2 months after I received them) I found one pretty quickly, but the other was buried and skeletal before I found it. The third pleco seems just fine, although maybe a bit lonely. Yesterday I add a "new" pleco that I've had for at least 9 months, which dies within 24 hours, just found her a few minutes ago, stomach bloated. This tank does have some BBA, but other than that I can't find any differences.

All of my tanks test similarly, but Nitrates are low, soft, low GH, high KH, PH ~ 8. 75 deg F, HOB filter rinsed a few days ago in well water.

Original lonely pleco is still ok. Ideas? was thinking of adding the Corys back in to displace aggression.  It will be a month before any of my other fry are ready to go in that tank, but I really don't want to sacrifice them needlessly.

[Tihshho]

Besides bloating did you see anything else? Is there anything else in the tank or anything that was added without QT?

[Brandon p]

Did you notice the bloated stomach before death. If it was sitting dead for a bit it could be gases. Were they getting enough food.

[Mark H.]

Tihshho,

nothing else noted, no injuries, 

just the one pleco hanging out under the filter or in a specific cave, no bristles, so I assume that it's a female. All 3 dead appeared to be female also. 

nothing but water or food recently. Don't remember exactly when I added the wood, but I bought it all the same day, before the first 2 deaths. Maybe even before the plecos were moved.

Just checked ammonia, 0.25, but even my well water tests at 0.25, which is why I quit testing it and just use the coop test strips.

Brandon p,

stomach was not bloated before the move last night. Went to bed, then work. Checked on them right when I got home. Don't know if it was dead a few minutes or all day.

everyone gets something every day, a wafer, zucchini, green beans or repashy. The fish that was moved and quickly died shared a 20 long with 15 corys and a few snails, plenty of food there.

[Tihshho]

Hrm, IMO you might need to find a new source of tank water if you're constantly adding 0.25ppm per water change. 

Is the other bristlenose a male? Could he be pinning the females or harassing them to breed and they are not ready?

[Mark H.]

On 9/15/2021 at 8:44 PM, Tihshho said:

Hrm, IMO you might need to find a new source of tank water if you're constantly adding 0.25ppm per water change. 

Is the other bristlenose a male? Could he be pinning the females or harassing them to breed and they are not ready?

I always blamed the ammonia result on my master test kit, never thought of it as being accurate....I have a 100 GPD RO system, I've always intended to rig that to fill a barrel, but a wife without drinking water may be a problem.

That was my thinking, hence the title of the post, but there are no visible odontodes(sp?) Could it harass enough to kill in <24 hours. 

[Tihshho]

On 9/15/2021 at 9:23 PM, Mark H. said:

I always blamed the ammonia result on my master test kit, never thought of it as being accurate....I have a 100 GPD RO system, I've always intended to rig that to fill a barrel, but a wife without drinking water may be a problem.

That was my thinking, hence the title of the post, but there are no visible odontodes(sp?) Could it harass enough to kill in <24 hours. 

T compression fittings would fix that RO issue, just have to feed it to a float valve in a storage container 😉

I've never had crazy aggression from Ancistrus to that point. I've had the bullies that bump up against other males, flick out their gills and do that wrestling match, but never seen anything too bad from them as it was more so just a show of dominance than just aggression. Without more information anything could be possible at this point. 

[Mark H.]

even the RO is light green from master test kit, but it's the same water  for everyone except shrimp.

I knew that it was a bit of a long shot, thanks for trying. I don't have a ton of information. I would be more understanding if I killed everything that I put in that tank. I've seen other plecos spar and chase, nothing of the sort here, but they did have 12 hours of dark by themselves.

 

 

[Tihshho]

If you're getting green from your RO you might need to check your setup. How old is the membrane? 

[Brandon p]

I have had some plecos that died in that died in the first month or two for no reason. They looked heathy, I even set up the live camera so I could watch. They looked good the tankmates never had an issue. Some of them when into a tank with other plecos and sometimes they were the only one. I have had plecos since I first had tanks in the early 90’s and over that period there was 5maybe six like that. Enough that it was strange and I watch really well. I also started to get a piece of wood and start it growing algae on it before in a tank that has some wood. That way there is an algea growing for them. I try to use soft wood(feels almost spongy). I have never had 2 die close to each other. Have you though about removing the pleco that’s left back to the quarantine tank and tring to restart the tank over. I use platys to start a tank. I used to get them as feeders from LFS. Now I have a pond for them( I don’t feed them as feeders.) 

[gardenman]

To recap, you bought six plecos, quarantined them together for three months with no issues. No aggression (torn fins, etc.) or obvious illness. You divided them up three into each of two tanks. Two died almost immediately after being put into one of the tanks but the third is doing fine. You then moved an established pleco (owned for nine months) into that same tank and it died within 24 hours. 

I've never seen an "I'm going to kill you!" level of aggression from my Super Reds. It's possible your survivor is that aggressive, but to kill another pleco is tough. The last Super Red I saw in a store had been in a tank with Oscars that had tried to eat it multiple times. It had badly torn fins but was alive and essentially well. A bit annoyed, but well. They'd tried to kill it but couldn't. The skeletal one is largely impossible to diagnose, but if the more intact dead ones didn't have torn fins and look like they'd been in a war, I would assume it wasn't aggression.

It could just be a weird coincidence, but plecos are pretty tough little buggers. The bloated stomach makes me think something bacterial might be the cause. Maybe your healthy fish is a carrier and thus immune, but why didn't it affect the others in quarantine? It could also be a water quality issue of some sort that doesn't show up on the testing. It might be a good idea to throw a few sacrificial fish into the tank with the pleco to see what happens. A pair of platies, swordtails, or other cheaper, more expendable fish to see if they have any issues.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

I was wondering about during your quarantine 

@Mark H.did you medicate these plecos? Give them the trio? The tanks you setup for them were new setups? Did you have dithers from one of your tanks? Did they have any areas of discoloration particularly behind the head? Any recent frozen foods? How about any blood worms recently? 
Since they looked good up to the events of their death I’d agree with @gardenmanthat bacterial infection makes the most sense. If they had sunken belly’s, white stringy poops etc we’d jump to parasites. The time line if 3 months is more parasitic than bacterial.   The stress of the transfer may have lowered their immune system just enough to make them susceptible. As to whether this other pleco is the carrier im not sure. 
That was a good long qt, I can’t really fault any of your methods and I’ve done the same in the past. Sorry and best of luck with moving on to your next project. 

[Mark H.]

On 9/15/2021 at 10:01 PM, Brandon p said:

I have had some plecos that died in that died in the first month or two for no reason. They looked heathy, I even set up the live camera so I could watch. They looked good the tankmates never had an issue. Some of them when into a tank with other plecos and sometimes they were the only one. I have had plecos since I first had tanks in the early 90’s and over that period there was 5maybe six like that. Enough that it was strange and I watch really well. I also started to get a piece of wood and start it growing algae on it before in a tank that has some wood. That way there is an algea growing for them. I try to use soft wood(feels almost spongy). I have never had 2 die close to each other. Have you though about removing the pleco that’s left back to the quarantine tank and tring to restart the tank over. I use platys to start a tank. I used to get them as feeders from LFS. Now I have a pond for them( I don’t feed them as feeders.) 

definitely thought about restating, the first two I chalked up to bad luck, but the third.....

On 9/15/2021 at 9:45 PM, Tihshho said:

If you're getting green from your RO you might need to check your setup. How old is the membrane? 

it's only 6 months old, low use, none of my ammonia tests have even said 0. I'll check the shrimp tank too, well cycled.

On 9/16/2021 at 9:25 AM, gardenman said:

To recap, you bought six plecos, quarantined them together for three months with no issues. No aggression (torn fins, etc.) or obvious illness. You divided them up three into each of two tanks. Two died almost immediately after being put into one of the tanks but the third is doing fine. You then moved an established pleco (owned for nine months) into that same tank and it died within 24 hours. 

I've never seen an "I'm going to kill you!" level of aggression from my Super Reds. It's possible your survivor is that aggressive, but to kill another pleco is tough. The last Super Red I saw in a store had been in a tank with Oscars that had tried to eat it multiple times. It had badly torn fins but was alive and essentially well. A bit annoyed, but well. They'd tried to kill it but couldn't. The skeletal one is largely impossible to diagnose, but if the more intact dead ones didn't have torn fins and look like they'd been in a war, I would assume it wasn't aggression.

It could just be a weird coincidence, but plecos are pretty tough little buggers. The bloated stomach makes me think something bacterial might be the cause. Maybe your healthy fish is a carrier and thus immune, but why didn't it affect the others in quarantine? It could also be a water quality issue of some sort that doesn't show up on the testing. It might be a good idea to throw a few sacrificial fish into the tank with the pleco to see what happens. A pair of platies, swordtails, or other cheaper, more expendable fish to see if they have any issues.

you got it, no torn fins, other than being dead, looked like a normal pleco. The three healthy (breeders) have never been in the same tank as the lone pleco. Separate lines, arrived separate and quarantined separately.

being a carrier of something also crossed my mind.

On 9/17/2021 at 8:49 AM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

I was wondering about during your quarantine 

@Mark H.did you medicate these plecos? Give them the trio? The tanks you setup for them were new setups? Did you have dithers from one of your tanks? Did they have any areas of discoloration particularly behind the head? Any recent frozen foods? How about any blood worms recently? 
Since they looked good up to the events of their death I’d agree with @gardenmanthat bacterial infection makes the most sense. If they had sunken belly’s, white stringy poops etc we’d jump to parasites. The time line if 3 months is more parasitic than bacterial.   The stress of the transfer may have lowered their immune system just enough to make them susceptible. As to whether this other pleco is the carrier im not sure. 
That was a good long qt, I can’t really fault any of your methods and I’ve done the same in the past. Sorry and best of luck with moving on to your next project. 

the 6 did not get medicated, the last dead one did, she was the lone survivor of the med trio that took out 5 other plecos. Which is why I had one odd one.

they've only been with an established school of cory cats or snails, most of which I bred. 

Blood worms, maybe with the single pleco, if she happened to snag some from the corys. The only other thing frozen is maybe some snail jello, with some extra calcium, puréed greens, fish flake and gelatin.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

Well I think they had something. Can’t fault your husbandry as it sounds excellent. This happens to all of us. I would have medicated them unless they came from a spotless source I always do. Depending on how fragile I feel they are I don’t always use all of the trio together. Lately I’ve been doing Maracyn and Ich-X together and doing paracleanse a week or two later. If I’m concerned about parasites I use Levamisole after the paracleanse. @Mark H.this still sucks. It took me weeks if not months to get over the last full grown pleco male I had. Still bugs me something I did (string for the moss not tight enough and got his pectoral fin wrapped around it) killed him. In your case I think it was external factors outside your control really. 

[Mark H.]

thanks for everyone's input, I'll start the one tank over and medicate its lone inhabitant. Adding some guppies or other livebearers, perhaps.