Dying black ram free swimming fry

[Snjchris]

Hi all, I have been trying ways to raise black ram fry. I am successful with hatching eggs, and transitioning the wrigglers to the free swimming stage. However I am having a hard time keeping the free swimmers alive. I have tried using the ziss breeder box and also raising them in a planted 15 gallon. Don't have much luck so far. I get only 20-30 survivors from two batch of eggs, with around 2 - 4 that are actually black. Rest are all gold. The massive die offs happen on day two or three of them being free swimmers. I know this from not seeing much fry at the surface of the water but not from seeing dead bodies. Not sure if it is because I don't have a bare bottom tank. 

I just have small populations of ramshorn and cherry shrimp in the 15 gallon. Could they be munching on the fry when they are sleeping? The nitrate level is around or less than 10ppm. No ammonia or nitrite. Water temp is around 82 and there is a sponge filter in there. Daily 30% water changes did not help with keeping the swimmers alive. 

I feed the fry at least four times a day, when the lights are on, with roughly two hours in between. I stopped feeding egg yolk since they rot easily. I do feed a mixture of first bites and sera micron. When the surviving fry gets bigger, I feed them BBS. 

I noticed that the free swimmers all love to stay near the water surface so at first I just dusted the food onto the surface. But now I am experimenting mixing the food in water and squirting it in. Does this makes a difference? 

What I may try next is to experiment raising them in a specimen box to see if the fry are dying off due to possible low food concentration in the 15 gallon. 

I heard that it may take two generations of fish to make them really successful in your own water. Is this what is happening here? Have you had issues raising ram fry from "1st" Gen parents? 

Any insight is much appreciated! 

[Fish Folk]

Rams are the best! Keep at it until you figure this out. You'll be really glad you did.

Here's a thread we posted here on the forum awhile back. Lots of videos . . . 

 

[Snjchris]

5 minutes ago, Fish Folk said:

Rams are the best! Keep at it until you figure this out. You'll be really glad you did.

Here's a thread we posted here on the forum awhile back. Lots of videos . . . 

 

Thanks for linking the post! I did watch some of your videos and that's where I learned about the yolk. I didn't have a specimen box at the beginning so I tried copying your way in a breeder box. However, I am relieved to read that you also experienced low numbers of viable fry from early-gen parents. I guess I got to raise from batches to try to get Gen 2 parents! 

[Fish Folk]

2 minutes ago, Snjchris said:

Thanks for linking the post! I did watch some of your videos and that's where I learned about the yolk. I didn't have a specimen box at the beginning so I tried copying your way in a breeder box. However, I am relieved to read that you also experienced low numbers of viable fry from early-gen parents. I guess I got to raise from batches to try to get Gen 2 parents! 

I think one key for us is using R.O. water in a controlled fry container. We change it out daily. Very tedious. Yes, there is something magical about multi gen Rams in your water. We got one strain that was looking very Opal . . .

 

 

[Snjchris]

9 minutes ago, Fish Folk said:

I think one key for us is using R.O. water in a controlled fry container. We change it out daily. Very tedious. Yes, there is something magical about multi gen Rams in your water. We got one strain that was looking very Opal . . .

 

 

Yes very tedious indeed. The fear of having fry dying from starvation is making me get up asap in the morning!

That opal color is amazing! I am jealous! I just have black rams so far. Not sure where we are going with the tank. May be getting discus in it someday. I am looking to find electric blue rams to cross with black rams. However, I don't think Co-op will have them soon since the ones they brought in didn't do very well. Someday! 

I saw that on another post someone is wondering if gold and black will make more black? I may try it if I have some good ones from my batch that is currently one inch long. One thing I believe though is that the 1% survivors definitely got some strong genes! 

[Fish Folk]

31 minutes ago, Snjchris said:

Yes very tedious indeed. The fear of having fry dying from starvation is making me get up asap in the morning!

That opal color is amazing! I am jealous! I just have black rams so far. Not sure where we are going with the tank. May be getting discus in it someday. I am looking to find electric blue rams to cross with black rams. However, I don't think Co-op will have them soon since the ones they brought in didn't do very well. Someday! 

I saw that on another post someone is wondering if gold and black will make more black? I may try it if I have some good ones from my batch that is currently one inch long. One thing I believe though is that the 1% survivors definitely got some strong genes! 

We haven't drilled in too deep with the Black Rams. I know that they tend to spread out a variety of fry colors. There is a label "Gold-from-black" to describe Rams that are gold but whose parents are black. Sometimes, if you spawn these with each other, the colors will cross back to yield more black. What you may be running into is a classic Punnet Square scenario where only 25% of fry are true black Rams.But of the limited number that survive, your numbers are ending up really low. If you're losing the fry within the first week, my first guess is that they're not doing well in your water. We warm WalMart bottled water (RO sourced) by floating in the larger tank water that the specimen container housing the hatched fry are hanging in. You have to siphon up the waste and uneaten food. Egg yolk is an old trick, but it's terribly easy to over feed. Sera Micron or New Life Spectrum fry powder are good options. Less is more with these tiny fry. 

[Snjchris]

1 minute ago, Fish Folk said:

We haven't drilled in too deep with the Black Rams. I know that they tend to spread out a variety of fry colors. There is a label "Gold-from-black" to describe Rams that are gold but whose parents are black. Sometimes, if you spawn these with each other, the colors will cross back to yield more black. What you may be running into is a classic Punnet Square scenario where only 25% of fry are true black Rams.But of the limited number that survive, your numbers are ending up really low. If you're losing the fry within the first week, my first guess is that they're not doing well in your water. We warm WalMart bottled water (RO sourced) by floating in the larger tank water that the specimen container housing the hatched fry are hanging in. You have to siphon up the waste and uneaten food. Egg yolk is an old trick, but it's terribly easy to over feed. Sera Micron or New Life Spectrum fry powder are good options. Less is more with these tiny fry. 

Thank you for sharing the Walmart water tip!  Water is definitely a factor here especially they are so picky. I'm going to experiment raising swimmers in the specimen box next and be vigilant in changing water 30 minutes after they eat. If that doesn't work, then I'm going to put more hope on the 2nd Gen. I have around 20 fry that are around 2 month old. Two are black and the rest are gold. Planning to rehome most and keeping a few. 

[anewbie]

A couple of things with raising frys. First they are extremely sensitive to dirty water and a primary source of 'dirt' is decaying fry or food so it is critical to remove uneaten food or dead frys from the ziss breeder (which i have). The easiest way to do this is with a magnifying glass and turkey blaster or eye dropper - just suck them up. 

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Second new born ram frys are very small - they won't eat until the yolk is exhausted (12 to 48 hours after they start swimming) and then for at least the first week they need live food (live because it moves - you can try powder like hiraki first bite or golden pearl but moving food works best). new born (as in a couple of hours) bbs might work but a lot of people use even smaller food like vinegar eel. If you can get them past the first week then things get easier. Also they will eat some biofilm if something like a small piece of driftwood (very established) or sponge filter - and if you can get the parents to raise them that is a huge bonus (rams are not the best parents and frequently take many trys to get it right) The benefit of the parents raising them is they will help the fry find food et all.

[Snjchris]

1 minute ago, anewbie said:

A couple of things with raising frys. First they are extremely sensitive to dirty water and a primary source of 'dirt' is decaying fry or food so it is critical to remove uneaten food or dead frys from the ziss breeder (which i have). The easiest way to do this is with a magnifying glass and turkey blaster or eye dropper - just suck them up. 

-

Second new born ram frys are very small - they won't eat until the yolk is exhausted (12 to 48 hours after they start swimming) and then for at least the first week they need live food (live because it moves - you can try powder like hiraki first bite or golden pearl but moving food works best). new born (as in a couple of hours) bbs might work but a lot of people use even smaller food like vinegar eel. If you can get them past the first week then things get easier. Also they will eat some biofilm if something like a small piece of driftwood (very established) or sponge filter - and if you can get the parents to raise them that is a huge bonus (rams are not the best parents and frequently take many trys to get it right) The benefit of the parents raising them is they will help the fry find food et all.

An issue I encountered with the ziss breeder is with the water flow. If I turn down the air stone, some of the fry will get out of the breeder box from the "air vents". But with normal flow, it still seems too much for them. Do you use an air stone with ziss breeder? And thank you for the tip on sucking down the debri. I need to get myself a magnifying glass. 

Does your free swimming fry stay at the surface of the water? The 15 gallon has algae and film growing in it but they are obviously not present at the surface. I'm trying to experiment different transport ways from egg hatching box to the grow out tank to see if it helps to keep them swimming "under". 

[anewbie]

1 minute ago, Snjchris said:

An issue I encountered with the ziss breeder is with the water flow. If I turn down the air stone, some of the fry will get out of the breeder box from the "air vents". But with normal flow, it still seems too much for them. Do you use an air stone with ziss breeder? And thank you for the tip on sucking down the debri. I need to get myself a magnifying glass. 

Does your free swimming fry stay at the surface of the water? The 15 gallon has algae and film growing in it but they are obviously not present at the surface. I'm trying to experiment different transport ways from egg hatching box to the grow out tank to see if it helps to keep them swimming "under". 

I don't remember them staying at the surface. For my ziss box i used the built in thing but covered the flow vent with filter floss. I did not use a second air-stone. You could try a solid box like marina box or specimen box but of course then it is more critical to remove uneaten food and similar. With those i use an established caf 10 sponge. I think i started with a marina box and then moved to the in tank ziss breeder when they were larger. The advantage of the marina box (I used a small one for the frys) is that it is easier to clean and do control feeding. The advantage of the ziss box is some of the uneaten food will flow through the mesh.

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I can't stress how delicate the fry are esp the first week and it is critical to keep the water spotless.

[Snjchris]

8 minutes ago, anewbie said:

I don't remember them staying at the surface. For my ziss box i used the built in thing but covered the flow vent with filter floss. I did not use a second air-stone. You could try a solid box like marina box or specimen box but of course then it is more critical to remove uneaten food and similar. With those i use an established caf 10 sponge. I think i started with a marina box and then moved to the in tank ziss breeder when they were larger. The advantage of the marina box (I used a small one for the frys) is that it is easier to clean and do control feeding. The advantage of the ziss box is some of the uneaten food will flow through the mesh.

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I can't stress how delicate the fry are esp the first week and it is critical to keep the water spotless.

Thank you for sharing your ziss setup! I need to pick up some filter material from Co-op and will ditch the air stone. I think I'm going to experiment with the breeder box and specimen box next with water change 30 minutes after feeding. Going to try my best to keep the water quality good. 

[Fish Folk]

To clean out fry containers, we find that a WalMart pharmacy ml. syringe with airline attached is perfect. Drop by the pharmacy desk, and ask if you can get a blue WalMart liquid medicine syringe. We’ve always offered to buy, but they’ve always just given them. We have half a dozen.