Mystery Deaths - what to do next time

[keddre]

Alright y’all, Long story short: I had 38 neon tetras die mysteriously. Meds didn’t help, and I’m wondering what I could do different next time

 

long story (all the details):

Got a 55 from my buddy. resealed it with “aquarium silicone” and let sit three days

got Pool filter sand and lava rocks from menards, cleaned it all throughly it’s water and a coffee strainer. 

filled tank and started cycle with ammonium chloride. Pitched “Tetra Safe Start”. Also Got plants from LFS

Give it take a month, cycle was done and I went to LFS to get neon tetras (asked for 20, was give 38)

fish went into QT with quarantine trio, air stone and sponge filter  (seeded from cycling tank). Simultaneously I was giving my DT 2ppm of ammonia a day to keep the Bacteria alive

week later did a big water change in DT, moved fish from QT to DT (all appeared healthy)

2-3 days later fish got ich. Started dosing ICH-X with daily water changes 

4-5 days later (yesterday) visible ich disappeared and I started getting funniness. What was happening was my fish started schooling again and swimming like they were healthy. Then slowly one fish would freeze up in the middle of the water column and start gasping hard. Fish would then barrel roll around or drop to the bottom of the tank. After about 5-10 minutes the fish would be dead. Now the weird part is it wasn’t every fish at once, it would be 1 or 2, then after they passed it would start again with different fish. During all of this, I was testing my water and at the highest, it read .25ppm ammonia, 0nitrite and 5.0nitrate, so I trust my cycle healed and didn’t crash. 
 

Today: doing a 75% water change, adding carbon to filter and cranking the heat up (trying to “reset” the tank without killing BB). Maybe try to get new neons in a couple weeks. 
 

any thoughts on what I may have done and what to do different with the next round of neons? It’s a 55 gallon tank and I want to try and do a big school of neons

[Gideyon]

I'm following because I'd like to learn of the possibilities. 

Did you measure the pH?  Just looked it up that they do better on the slightly acidic side. 6ish.   Maybe something happened after the medication that raised the pH considerably?

Edited March 6, 2021 by Gideyon

[keddre]

14 minutes ago, Gideyon said:

I'm following because I'd like to learn of the possibilities. 

Did you measure the pH?  Just looked it up that they do better on the slightly acidic side. 6ish.   Maybe something happened after the medication that raised the pH considerably?

Yes. PH was 7.4 in QT, 7.2 in DT and around 7.6 from the tap 

[Gideyon]

Acoording to this guy, pH above 7 isn't good for them. 

"Neon Tetras, despite being freshwater fish, they thrive best in slightly acidic or neutral water.

Hence, their ideal pH level is between 5.5 and 6.2. Although, they can survive in pH levels between 5.5 and 6.8 too!" 

 

https://tetra-fish-care.com/does-water-ph-level-affect-neon-tetras/

 

[keddre]

2 minutes ago, Gideyon said:

Acoording to this guy, pH above 7 isn't good for them. 

"Neon Tetras, despite being freshwater fish, they thrive best in slightly acidic or neutral water.

Hence, their ideal pH level is between 5.5 and 6.2. Although, they can survive in pH levels between 5.5 and 6.8 too!" 

 

https://tetra-fish-care.com/does-water-ph-level-affect-neon-tetras/

 

About to read the article now, but I was hoping for the “it matters way more that the ph is stable” approach 

[Wes L.]

My guess is they died from Ammonia poisoning. That's the number one killer of fish in new tanks and I just walked that walk 10 months ago. I set up a new 55 gallon and also created a tetra tank. My PH is 7.53 and I haven't had even one neon death since I cycled correctly....so your PH is just fine for neons. They can't reproduce in a higher PH like we have, but they thrive just fine.

First round I also tried cycling my tank with fishless cycling with some useless bacteria product. I added 12 neons to the tank and all 12 died within 24 hours, after behaving like what you were describing in your fish. I did a lot of research and decided to try Dr. Tim's brand of fishless cycling. He holds the patent on the only type of beneficial bacteria that really works. The other brands contain the same type of nitrosomonas bacteria that are used in sewage treatment facilities, but we have aquariums. Not one fish death after I cycled the second time.

However, adding 38 fish all at once to a newly cycled tank isn't a good idea. It creates too much bio load all at one for a fledgling colony of bacteria. I started with 12 fish, then after every week to week and a half I added 6 more. I actually emailed the manufacturer and asked the question and they were super helpful, however they said add fish slowly. They actually said give the new fish and tank 4 to 5 days to adjust before adding more. I proceeded cautiously and gave it 7 to 10 days before adding more fish....and NO deaths! Now I have 120 fish in that tank...and still no deaths.

Also you never have to worry about not having enough ammonia for the bacteria to thrive. They're not human so they don't need to "eat" every day. If you have more bacteria than ammonia, that's a good thing. The bacteria will go dormant, not die, until there is an increase in ammonia and they are needed.

The other thing about ammonia spikes is we can totally miss it. The bacterial colony can double it's size every 7 hours if it needs to in order to accommodate an increase in ammonia. So that's 3 times in a 24 hour period. If we add a huge bio load all at once the ammonia remains in the tank until the colony can replicate itself to process all that ammonia. While it's doing that, the ammonia is damaging the fish, then we come along the next day and test for ammonia, and it's 0 or .25 or whatever and we scratch our heads thinking there's no ammonia.....there was ammonia, we just missed it. The bacteria grew...3 times in 24 hours...but the damage has already been done.

The other issue for you is dosing with Ich-x. That will still kill off some of your bacterial colony. Even the manufacturer's web site says they use a "less toxic" form of malachite green....so still a little toxic.

I would suggest do a massive water change to make sure all the Ich-x is out and then recycle. It's a process that takes 13 days, but is totally worth the time.....and I have had unbelievable success with it.

[Gideyon]

39 minutes ago, Wes L. said:

My guess is they died from Ammonia poisoning. That's the number one killer of fish in new tanks and I just walked that walk 10 months ago. I set up a new 55 gallon and also created a tetra tank. My PH is 7.53 and I haven't had even one neon death since I cycled correctly....so your PH is just fine for neons. They can't reproduce in a higher PH like we have, but they thrive just fine.

First round I also tried cycling my tank with fishless cycling with some useless bacteria product. I added 12 neons to the tank and all 12 died within 24 hours, after behaving like what you were describing in your fish. I did a lot of research and decided to try Dr. Tim's brand of fishless cycling. He holds the patent on the only type of beneficial bacteria that really works. The other brands contain the same type of nitrosomonas bacteria that are used in sewage treatment facilities, but we have aquariums. Not one fish death after I cycled the second time.

However, adding 38 fish all at once to a newly cycled tank isn't a good idea. It creates too much bio load all at one for a fledgling colony of bacteria. I started with 12 fish, then after every week to week and a half I added 6 more. I actually emailed the manufacturer and asked the question and they were super helpful, however they said add fish slowly. They actually said give the new fish and tank 4 to 5 days to adjust before adding more. I proceeded cautiously and gave it 7 to 10 days before adding more fish....and NO deaths! Now I have 120 fish in that tank...and still no deaths.

Also you never have to worry about not having enough ammonia for the bacteria to thrive. They're not human so they don't need to "eat" every day. If you have more bacteria than ammonia, that's a good thing. The bacteria will go dormant, not die, until there is an increase in ammonia and they are needed.

The other thing about ammonia spikes is we can totally miss it. The bacterial colony can double it's size every 7 hours if it needs to in order to accommodate an increase in ammonia. So that's 3 times in a 24 hour period. If we add a huge bio load all at once the ammonia remains in the tank until the colony can replicate itself to process all that ammonia. While it's doing that, the ammonia is damaging the fish, then we come along the next day and test for ammonia, and it's 0 or .25 or whatever and we scratch our heads thinking there's no ammonia.....there was ammonia, we just missed it. The bacteria grew...3 times in 24 hours...but the damage has already been done.

The other issue for you is dosing with Ich-x. That will still kill off some of your bacterial colony. Even the manufacturer's web site says they use a "less toxic" form of malachite green....so still a little toxic.

I would suggest do a massive water change to make sure all the Ich-x is out and then recycle. It's a process that takes 13 days, but is totally worth the time.....and I have had unbelievable success with it.

2 hours ago, keddre said:

About to read the article now, but I was hoping for the “it matters way more that the ph is stable approach 

 

I didn't think about the sudden number of fish at once and it's impact on the bioload.  That makes perfect sense.    

[Evan]

I think 0.25 ppm ammonia is not a cycled tank

[Harpsandfish]

Regarding the pH - my green neon tetras are thriving in 7.4 - 7.6. Is your tank planted?

[Will Billy]

8 hours ago, Wes L. said:

However, adding 38 fish all at once to a newly cycled tank isn't a good idea. It creates too much bio load all at one for a fledgling colony of bacteria

I think @Wes L. hit the nail on the head. It takes time for bacteria to populate in response to increased bio load. Follow his advice in gradually increasing your fish and you should be fine. 

[keddre]

Thanks y’all. In my Defense I didn’t want that many, half were gifted lol. 
but yeah, I was testing every morning and didn’t think about outside that particular time