Sick endlers

[Lauren A]

Hi,

So, I’ve been losing endlers one by one in a 10 gallon planted tank I started running the beginning of June til end of August.  
 

I bought 10 Ginga Rubra Endler guppies and QT’d them without issue for 2 weeks and added them to the tank at the very end of August.  Tank had been running 3 months.  
 

I added snails to the tank about a month or so after running the tank.  A couple ramshorns from my other tanks and 4 beloved horned nerites.  
 

Prior to this my nerites were in a plant bin with new plants.  Not sure why I didn’t disinfect the plants first.  They were all disinfected before I added them to the tank though.  All of them but my moss (stupid) which subsequently came with copepods.  
 
Fast forward to 3 weeks after the endlers were added and one died.  He was the smallest and weakest so I thought this way why.  I assumed he was being bullied as the big boys.

Second death came a week later.  I thought again, because he was tiny compared to the big boys, that he was too weak and bullied.

Third death was more obvious to me as far as what lead up to the death.  He did have an abrasion on his side, so I thought he was also bullied (again a small one - I had 6 big ones).

Wvat I noted was this.  The same followed for the 4 others that died.  
 

Healthy seeming group one day but one with stringy poop.  By the next day that Endler would be at the bottom of the tank.  Looking very thin and stressed.  Breathing heavy.  Wiggling back and forth on the bottom.  Still trying to eat.  A little swimming when others would come by to nudge him.  As the day would go on, he’d beckne extremely lethargic.  And be dead either that day or by the next morning.

 

Two of the fish were being eaten by the snails were eating during each time by morning.  I could see a little bit of them left with snails covering him/them.

 

Ive lost 7 of the 10 and after much research determined these were not just weak fish, they were ill most likely with a parasite.  After reading Cory’s post on Livebearer Wasting Disease, I thought the symptoms matched up.  I saw nothing outside of them on their bodies, so I started Fritz Expel P a couple days  ago.

i did a heavy vacuum yesterday with the 25% wc.  I know I stirred  and sucked up all the around my plants and probably messed with my little ecosystem and bio bacteria so I added Stability to be on the safe side.  

 So, now today, I see a Planaria worm.  I have never encountered them in my tanks before.  That’s not to say they don’t live in my other tanks since I have bettas, but given I’ve had no issues with my Amano shrimp with one of my bettas, I never really thought of it.  I have never seen them until today.

 

i set a Planaria trap.  I imagine some were paralyzed by the Expel P.

 

My question is, could the planaria be praying on my little endlers.  They are Ginga Rubras and quite a bit smaller than my black bar Ebdlers but they’re also 3 years old.  I’m sure the Ginga’s are quite young.

 

Now my 3 remaining are still alive.  Two are spitting out food today.  One is eating like crazy.  They’ve all had long stringy poop today.  

I don’t see Cammalanus - but the fish are so small.  And fast.  All I can do is zoom in on pics if I get a clear one and video them to see their anus’.  But they are such tiny fish.  It’s real hard to tell.

 

i will say, the weight loss in the ones I’ve lost is so fast.  Overnight.

 

Im curious, do you think I’m doing what’s right medication wise?

 

I take very good care of my tanks and have never had water quality issues.  Let me go ahead and send you my parameters once I send this, but all within normal ranges.  Actually an ideal tank for endlers IMO.  
 

any help, insight, experiences, anything would be greatly appreciated.  I prob should’ve reached out sooner, I just can’t tell if I’m looking for issues that aren’t there or if I’m dealing with a very weak and immune compromised group of fish from the start.  
 

Thank you!  
 

 

 

Edited October 8 by Lauren A
Messed up dates tank was running

[Lauren A]

This is the 3rd one I lost.  As you can see, it looks like an abrasion on his side.  The skin fell off as I was removing him from the tank.

 

 

Thus is the last one I lost after removing from the tank.  Those marks on his abdomen, I’m not sure if that’s injury from wiggling on the sand so much or something else.  I wish I opened him up in a way to see if I saw any worms or to view under a microscope.  But I did not.  
 

The last one pictured I removed right after he died.

Edited October 8 by Lauren A

[Lauren A]

One more pic of one I lost and I’ll add my parameters 

 

This was less than 24 hours before this one died

 

[Lauren A]

I just want to add that no other fish are in the tank.  My plan was to add a betta after a few weeks of the fish getting comfy, but obviously I can not do anything until I know the tank is safe.

 

Here is one that is still alive.  With the stringy poop I mentioned.  
 

 

And a planaria 

 

Edited October 8 by Lauren A

[Lauren A]

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 15

9dGh

7dkh

7.4 ph

Here are a few pics I took of the 3 left.  
 

I actually have a question about the new water I add during water changes.  My tap water is very soft because I have a filter on it to remove contaminants like PFAS.

 

When I do my water changes, should I be adding something to the new water?  I also just learned that I should be prepping my water a day in advance with a bubbler running in it in a bucket to degas it.  I had never heard of degassing and I’ve been fishkeeping now about 5 years.  I wonder if this could be cause for concern.  
 

I’m so sorrr this is so much information.  Just curious and want to be thorough.  Thank you.  

Edited October 8 by Lauren A

[Colu]

With weight loss and spitting food can be a sign of wasting with  the odd random deaths  I would consider treating for a parasitic infections follow@odd duck treatment protocol for parasitic infections levamisole active ingredient in expel p can be harmful to snails and shrimp so I would remove them before treating I would use prazipro active ingredient praziquantel as well @Lauren A

[Lauren A]

@ColuThanj you so much,  I’m so glad I posted about this.  I’ve been so upset and doing so much research but just having a hard time pinpointing the exact cause.

i will definitely remove the snails.  Expel P said it was safe for them but I’ll definitely get them out of the tank.  

I really appreciate your help.  I’ll start the new medicine and follow these instructions.  I’ll check Petsmart and Petco, but if I have to order the Prazypro on Amazon, it won’t be here until Thursday.  
 

Since I added the Expel P on Sunday and did the instructed 25% wc yesterday (24 hours later) what do you recommend I do since the next Expel treatment isn’t called for for a week - so Sunday?  
 

Should I still follow as is and “start over” with the Expel P Thursday and add the Prazipro Friday?  Or should I wait until after next dose of Expel?  Hope this makes sense.  
 

Also, did you happen to see my edit about the Gh in the water - tap vs. tank?  The tank has a wooden arch handmade (not by me) but it’s held together at the bases with limestone.  So that’s why it’s so much higher.  
 

Thank you so much.  

[Lauren A]

@ColuI can put up a new post on the degassing.  I don’t think it’s related to this and might need to get into my Gh in detail and it probably has nothing to do with the endlers.  Thank you though!  
 

Update: please disregard my question on degassing if anyone is reading.  Thx so much 🙏

Edited October 9 by Lauren A
Ignore degassing question

[Colu]

What I would do is a course of prazipro when it arrives then  follow the treatment protocol from there so week 2 just treat with expel p your GH shouldn't be causing the issues your seeing 

[Lauren A]

On 10/8/2024 at 8:03 PM, Colu said:

What I would do is a course of prazipro when it arrives then  follow the treatment protocol from there so week 2 just treat with expel p your GH shouldn't be causing the issues your seeing 

Excellent.  Thank you so much for reading all of this and your help.  Thank you to @Odd Ducktoo for the treatment protocol.  Really appreciate it.  Have a nice night 🙏

[Odd Duck]

Answering your degassing question because somebody reading might have the same question and be too shy to ask.
Degassing is only necessary if you aren’t using dechlorinator and there is chlorine in your tap water.  Degassing takes too long for chloramine (over a week) so dechlorinator is much better for chloramines.

 

Back to the endlers. 
I suspect you may have some parasites hiding and Expel-P is my main go to for the most common intestinal parasites in tropical fish.  The Praziquantal gets other types of less common parasites but when there are significant symptoms of potential intestinal parasites, I do recommend both.  Timing is everything when it comes to clearing intestinal parasites.  The timing between the PraziPro and the Expel-P isn’t critical (the schedule I recommend just tries to simplify it as much as possible to reduce the number of 50% water changes).  The timing between Expel-P doses is important and the timing between PraziPro doses is important.  The goal for each is to hit the parasites at the point in the parasite’s life cycle when they are most vulnerable to the treatment.  Also, please do 50% water changes - this is mostly so you are siphoning out as much worm debris and eggs as possible that may have gone to the bottom of the tank, so vacuum the bottom actively while siphoning, not just a mid-water change to remove drug.  The goal is to remove worm eggs from the tank to reduce risk of re-infecting the fish.

If you haven’t added extra air, you can always try that as a way to help support overall fish health.

There is also some evidence that adding some bottled bacteria may be a bit of an immune booster because there is a huge variety of bacteria in most of the bottled bacteria (how active that bacteria is remains debatable).  Essentially appears to be acting as probiotics.  The bottled bacteria can also protect by crowding out some of the nasty bacteria by sheer numbers.  It’s not likely to change intestinal parasite load but it might help overall gut health.

Endlers, like many live bearers, tend to like harder water, so adding a bit of salt to your water might be a good thing.  I would start at 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons, then work up to 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons and see if that helps anything.  It helps sort out electrolyte issues sometimes and intestinal parasites can interfere with a fish’s electrolytes.  When you do water changes with salt, make sure to add salt only for the amount of water you are changing, not the total tank volume or salt will accumulate too much.

Hope this helps.  Keep us posted.

[Lauren A]

On 10/9/2024 at 3:26 PM, Odd Duck said:

Answering your degassing question because somebody reading might have the same question and be too shy to ask.
Degassing is only necessary if you aren’t using dechlorinator and there is chlorine in your tap water.  Degassing takes too long for chloramine (over a week) so dechlorinator is much better for chloramines.

 

Back to the endlers. 
I suspect you may have some parasites hiding and Expel-P is my main go to for the most common intestinal parasites in tropical fish.  The Praziquantal gets other types of less common parasites but when there are significant symptoms of potential intestinal parasites, I do recommend both.  Timing is everything when it comes to clearing intestinal parasites.  The timing between the PraziPro and the Expel-P isn’t critical (the schedule I recommend just tries to simplify it as much as possible to reduce the number of 50% water changes).  The timing between Expel-P doses is important and the timing between PraziPro doses is important.  The goal for each is to hit the parasites at the point in the parasite’s life cycle when they are most vulnerable to the treatment.  Also, please do 50% water changes - this is mostly so you are siphoning out as much worm debris and eggs as possible that may have gone to the bottom of the tank, so vacuum the bottom actively while siphoning, not just a mid-water change to remove drug.  The goal is to remove worm eggs from the tank to reduce risk of re-infecting the fish.

If you haven’t added extra air, you can always try that as a way to help support overall fish health.

There is also some evidence that adding some bottled bacteria may be a bit of an immune booster because there is a huge variety of bacteria in most of the bottled bacteria (how active that bacteria is remains debatable).  Essentially appears to be acting as probiotics.  The bottled bacteria can also protect by crowding out some of the nasty bacteria by sheer numbers.  It’s not likely to change intestinal parasite load but it might help overall gut health.

Endlers, like many live bearers, tend to like harder water, so adding a bit of salt to your water might be a good thing.  I would start at 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons, then work up to 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons and see if that helps anything.  It helps sort out electrolyte issues sometimes and intestinal parasites can interfere with a fish’s electrolytes.  When you do water changes with salt, make sure to add salt only for the amount of water you are changing, not the total tank volume or salt will accumulate too much.

Hope this helps.  Keep us posted.

Thank you so much for all of this information.  I really appreciate it and apologize for the late reply.

The fish seem to be doing well and tolerating both meds.  They actually seem much more active and less clamped up.  One still clamps up a little.  They are all eating.  
 

I’ve had two bubblers running and I have the Aquaclear 20 filter turned all the way up and  it gives good flow throughout the tank.  
 

The degassing had me so confused.  A friend and fishkeeper of mine recommended I do this.  Basically, she says I should put my dechlorinated tank water in a bucket and run a bubbler in there for a half hour.  Of course, I was like, that’s a lot of work!  Not that I mind, but I never did this before (I’ve been in the hobby 5 years) and I never had issues.  I think her reasoning is to get the tiny bubbles out of the tap water - she called it degassing but she’s from Germany so maybe it’s different wording than us.  I never get these bubbles. Oh, and I always use dechlorinator - Prime,  
 

My typical water changes are not large.  I only do about 20% my 7 gallons.  They’ve been running almost 2 years.  I’ll do a larger water change occasionally, but never past I’d say 50%.  The tanks have a ton of plants though.  Literally filled with plants.  Anyway, I’ve never seen little bubbles but I also baffle the water a little on its way in so it’s not disturbing the substrate.  
 

I’m also adding VitaChem to the sick tank.  I have Kordons Fish Protector too.  Is this something you recommend?  I don’t think it’s contraindicated with the meds.  But don’t want to risk anything until I ask.

 

The water in this tank is slightly harder than my other tanks.  There is a big wooden arch with the wood twisted in the tank that has some medium sized limestones holding it together and down.  I think these raise the Gh.  
 

With the AQ salt, I have used this in tanks in the past.  Sometimes it hits my plants hard.  For the dose you recommended, do you think my plants will be ok?  I know the fish health is more important, so I can deal with it if not, but also don’t want to muck up my water with melting/dying plants, especially with no snails to do clean up.  
 

So interesting about the bottled bacteria.  After these large water changes/vacuums, i have been adding the recommended dose of Stability.  I’ve been siphoning up mulm around my plants, I usually leave it be around my crypts because I know it has benefits for the tank and fish.  
 

Since I’ve siphoned literally every area in the tank, I even remove the arch so I can really get in there around the arch, I know I’m removing lots of beneficial bacteria.  And using a toothbrush to get in all the crevices of the wood.  I’m actually thinking of replacing the wood when all of this is over.  It’s large and difficult to siphon around.  I just think it’s too big for the tank.  It looks beautiful but does deter me from getting the sand around it really siphoned well.  

I bought a new piece today that may work better.  It’s not intricate like the arch.  
 

Sorry, I’m probably writing too much.  Would you recommend I add extra Stability and what dose?

Thank you so much.  I hope this all makes sense.  

Edited 2 hours ago by Lauren A
Forgot something

[Lauren A]

One more thing, when I add the Expel-P I saw many little worms float up and around.  They are very small.  I think probably Planaria.  I had no idea I had as many as I do.  It’s not hundreds but I saw maybe a dozen today.  I’m glad the meds are paralyzing them.  I just hope I can get all of them out of the tank.  They’re so tiny.  
 

Another reason to replace the twisted arch.  Too many places for these worms to live in and hide.  I’m just doing a smooth manzanita wood instead.  I’ll most likely replace the arch.  I don’t want to be removing it every water change.

I’m so used to soil tanks.  This is my first non soil tank, so I honestly didn’t know I should be doing deep vacuums on it every week.  I was just hovering over it to pick up debris but I don’t think it was enough.  

[Odd Duck]

I would not add any extras besides the salt and beneficial bacteria when doing meds. The extras can potentially bind the meds and make them less effective. Salt is known to be safe. The other stuff I wouldn’t do for now. After treatment is done they should be fine.