Need help with Betta finrot/cycle issue

[Rononk]

Hi, so I'm posting in regards to my Betta, I've been fighting Fin rot with him for several months, and as result it crashed my tanks cycle, it's now cycling again, but I noticed a whitish spot on his lower fin near his body, my cycle seems to be currently in the Nitrite phase, I am dosing the water daily with Seachem prime and Stability to detoxify the harmful chemicals. However, I'm looking for confirmation on how to deal with this fin rot during a cycling issue. I can't use Maracyn or anything like that as prime will make it inert. I'm currently in process of changing his water slowly over to bottled spring water instead of my Tap/well water, as I believe well water is the culprit for this issue. I messed up one of the changes two weeks ago and put too much spring water in and it caused shock, so he's recovered from that, but I'm still gradually acclimating him to new water conditions, by doing 10% spring/90 tap water. I currently have Indian Almond leaves in the tank, and Rooibos tea for tannins, but it's not shrinking the fin rot. I'm starting daily water changes to try to counter act the fin rot, I know it will make my cycle take longer, but I'm hoping 10-20% water changes daily cleans his fin up. I guess I'm looking for confirmation that I'm taking the right steps.  I'll post parameters and couple pictures of spot below. if you don't think this is fin rot, that would be great info. the previous fin rot started as tiny holes or on edges of his fins so I knew more of what I was dealing with, never seen it look like this. any info is appreciated Thank you.

Ronon

• pH 8.0
• Nitrates 5-10ppm
• Hardness not sure
• Nitrite 0.25-0.50ppm
• Ammonia 0 or below 0.25ppm
• KH/Buffer not sure
• Water Temperature 79-80

I use a sponge filter as well, any other info just ask. I currently have a API Master test kit, and digital PH scan, as tannins were making liquids tests a little difficult to discern.

 

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[Colu]

I think the water quality issue  are causing the fin issues I would do daily 30% water changes add a double dose of prime to help detoxify any ammonia and keep adding the bottled bacteria I would also add a small amount of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 if you don't have shrimp or snails most live plants can tolerate that level of salt fine just remember to only put back in what you get out so if you do a 5 gallon water change put 1 table spoon of aquarium salt back in as salt only removed though water changes I wouldn't recommend adding maracyn it will harm your benefial bacteria go from there when your tank fully cycled I think you will start to notice an improvement in his fins with stable water parameters anf Indian almond leaves@Rononk

[Rononk]

I do have shrimp and snails in the tank sadly. I can try to fish them out and keep them in a smaller tank for now if you think that will help. so I have a 20 Gallon Rectangle tank, so with substrate and leaving some space at top it equals out to about 15 gallons. I also don't have Aquarium salt on me, but I'll order some now and it should be here in next day or two.

I started about 30% water change today, I'll continue every day, been doing 50% spring/50% well water, but may alter that a bit, just nervous as last time he didn't have enough time to acclimate and started twitching violently for about 5-7 days, he's better now, but I had to revert back to tap water to stabilize him, so started doing 10-15% spring, with 3.5 gallon changes, going to up it to 25% or even 30%. just not sure how long I should let him acclimate to new water conditions? 1 week or 2? before doing bigger % of spring water.

[Tony s]

On 8/24/2024 at 1:24 AM, Rononk said:

do have shrimp and snails in the tank sadly. I can try to fish them out and keep them in a smaller tank for now if you think that will help

Easier to fish him out. Next to impossible to fish out all the shrimplettes

[Colu]

On 8/24/2024 at 6:24 AM, Rononk said:

I do have shrimp and snails in the tank sadly. I can try to fish them out and keep them in a smaller tank for now if you think that will help. so I have a 20 Gallon Rectangle tank, so with substrate and leaving some space at top it equals out to about 15 gallons. I also don't have Aquarium salt on me, but I'll order some now and it should be here in next day or two.

I started about 30% water change today, I'll continue every day, been doing 50% spring/50% well water, but may alter that a bit, just nervous as last time he didn't have enough time to acclimate and started twitching violently for about 5-7 days, he's better now, but I had to revert back to tap water to stabilize him, so started doing 10-15% spring, with 3.5 gallon changes, going to up it to 25% or even 30%. just not sure how long I should let him acclimate to new water conditions? 1 week or 2? before doing bigger % of spring water.

With  spring water changes you can gradually increase the percentage of spring water in water changes over the next two weeks if you have a quarantine tank you could put him in  you could put in some cycled media from another tank and treat with a higher dose of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 2 gallons for week I would do that

[Rononk]

On 8/24/2024 at 5:38 AM, Tony s said:

Easier to fish him out. Next to impossible to fish out all the shrimplettes

Yeah, that makes more sense 😉 I'll post an update once my aquarium salt arrives.

[Rononk]

On 8/24/2024 at 6:40 AM, Colu said:

With  spring water changes you can gradually increase the percentage of spring water in water changes over the next two weeks if you have a quarantine tank you could put him in  you could put in some cycled media from another tank and treat with a higher dose of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 2 gallons for week I would do that

Yeah, I ordered a small heater for my 3.5g and can convert that into a quarantine as it's my first aquarium I had, and has been empty. That should let me get his water conditions close to his current tank, I can also shift water from main tank to that one, then just slowly alter it out with salt and spring/tap water changes. The salt and heater were suppose to be here today but now it says tomorrow or Wed. (I live in the boonies in Canada) I guess it gives me time to see if that water changes I'm doing now will have any effect.

He still seems good, if it wasn't for that spot I would say he's perfectly fine, he's playing with me, still eating. etc, when the fin rot first came around  a few months ago he got really weak, I thought he was going to die.

I'm currently feeding him Northfin pellets, and Fluval Bug bites, once a week he gets a freeze dried blood worm as a treat, only because I can't find any other kind here. I soak his pellets in Vita-chem to give him some extra vitamin boost since he's been sick.

Edited August 26 by Rononk

[Rononk]

On 8/24/2024 at 6:40 AM, Colu said:

With  spring water changes you can gradually increase the percentage of spring water in water changes over the next two weeks if you have a quarantine tank you could put him in  you could put in some cycled media from another tank and treat with a higher dose of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 2 gallons for week I would do that

The salt arrived today, but the heater for my quarantine tank is delayed for another day or two. I'm going to put in a half dose of salt in main tank and hope it helps. I think my cycle crashed again from water changes as my nitrites went from .25ppm to 0ppm, and if there is nitrates in there they are so small it's not picking them up on the liquid test, so not sure anymore.

Edited August 27 by Rononk

[Rononk]

On 8/24/2024 at 6:40 AM, Colu said:

With  spring water changes you can gradually increase the percentage of spring water in water changes over the next two weeks if you have a quarantine tank you could put him in  you could put in some cycled media from another tank and treat with a higher dose of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 2 gallons for week I would do that

Started setting up the quarantine today, put the tank water I changed out into it, so if I move him into it, he will be use to the conditions, then as I change water it should make it easier, I read some stuff on Quarantine tanks, but got mixed results, I know you said to drop in filter media, but my tank that is cycled only has the one sponge filter and some gravel, and moss etc for shrimp and snails. not a whole lot to help cycle, I did throw some extra filters into the cycled tank when you mentioned it a few days ago, to help them build up some bacteria in the sponges. but could take a while for that to build up. Do you need to cycle a quarantine tank? I know you gotta be careful of ammonia and such. but been reading mixed results some say you should cycle, others say not required. (I'm extremely cautious with him as he's been fighting different issues for months, so I try not to stress him more then I have to.)

I'm in my 2nd day of treatment with salt in my 20g using the measurements you mentioned, been changing out 2.5-3.5g a day and adding half a teaspoon per gallon, as that's what the box said to do for smaller volumes. Thanks again @Colu

[Rononk]

@Colu Still no progress on fin rot issue, tank cycle has crashed again, but less worried about that at the moment and want to get fin rot under control. it hasn't really grown, but starting to see 2 very small pin holes where it's infected. tried 50% water change the day before last and replaced salt then waited 1 day for 50% water change again, been 5 days with the recommended salt dose in my 20gallon, but haven't moved him to QT yet, as I wasn't sure if I needed to cycle it or not. now I'm thinking before I move him to QT I should give him a few days to rest without salt as I know prolonged salt can cause issues internally. thoughts? I could just move him to QT with no substrate and no cycle and change water daily. it does have heater, and I can outfit a small filter. I also ordered Kanaplex but it's not going to be here for a while as I can't get anti-biotics where I am, so had to use Ebay. said would be between sept. 6th-12th.

[Colu]

On 8/31/2024 at 4:34 PM, Rononk said:

@Colu Still no progress on fin rot issue, tank cycle has crashed again, but less worried about that at the moment and want to get fin rot under control. it hasn't really grown, but starting to see 2 very small pin holes where it's infected. tried 50% water change the day before last and replaced salt then waited 1 day for 50% water change again, been 5 days with the recommended salt dose in my 20gallon, but haven't moved him to QT yet, as I wasn't sure if I needed to cycle it or not. now I'm thinking before I move him to QT I should give him a few days to rest without salt as I know prolonged salt can cause issues internally. thoughts? I could just move him to QT with no substrate and no cycle and change water daily. it does have heater, and I can outfit a small filter. I also ordered Kanaplex but it's not going to be here for a while as I can't get anti-biotics where I am, so had to use Ebay. said would be between sept. 6th-12th.

The problem you have is any ammonia or nitrite will slow his recovery and affect his immune response so I would focus on getting the tank cycled and do daily water changes to get your ammonia and nitrite to zero  that will be more beneficial for him see how things go before the kanaplex arrives 

[Rononk]

On 8/31/2024 at 7:25 PM, Colu said:

The problem you have is any ammonia or nitrite will slow his recovery and affect his immune response so I would focus on getting the tank cycled and do daily water changes to get your ammonia and nitrite to zero  that will be more beneficial for him see how things go before the kanaplex arrives 

@ColuRight, but I'm fairly certain my cycle has crashed again, my readings are 0ppm across the board, which means possibly weeks or more? to cycle right? how do I do that without his fin rot progressing? the 25% water changes I think killed the cycle and his fin rot got worse over that week, as it was going normally at 0.25ppm nitrites for 4 days, then one day everything read 0 and my nitrates vanished as well. I'm still dosing Prime and Stability, but with so much water changes, I think it's just basically flushing all the bacteria.

just confused as I'm not sure how to cycle when he's got fin rot, as it just seems to be getting worse and the changes keep crashing the cycle.

I guess what I'm asking is, since I can't seem to cycle with him in tank as he keeps getting finrot and water changes are killing the cycle, should I move him to the 3.5G un-cycled QT and wait until my 20G is cycled?

Edited September 1 by Rononk

[Colu]

 if your tanks heavily planted you can get zero nitrates I would just test daily and only water change when you detect ammonia or nitrite water changes do slow down the cycling process it also lowers the bacterial count in the water and it's  beneficial to his fins if his fins are  receding rapidly and have Redding to the edge I would go a head and treat with the kanaplex in quarantine when it arrives if you can get some cycled media from another tank or LFS that would help speed up the cycling process @Rononk

[Rononk]

On 8/31/2024 at 8:55 PM, Colu said:

 if your tanks heavily planted you can get zero nitrates I would just test daily and only water change when you detect ammonia or nitrite water changes do slow down the cycling process it also lowers the bacterial count in the water and it's  beneficial to his fins if his fins are  receding rapidly and have Redding to the edge I would go a head and treat with the kanaplex in quarantine when it arrives if you can get some cycled media from another tank or LFS that would help speed up the cycling process @Rononk

@ColuIt's not heavily planted but has some Moss, couple different types of Java ferns, Valisneria, Anubias and one other stem plant. the rot isn't so much on the edges of his fin but the top of his fin, a hair from his body, and it's white and black, with small pin holes forming in it.

I will make stop at my LFS tomorrow on way home from work, can see if they will sell me some filter media. I should be getting more Nitrates then I am, but you may be right, the water changes and plants may be chewing up all the nitrates. I may have killed it though with water changes, today was my 2nd day of 50% water change the first one was thursday. 

if it gets worse before the Kanaplex gets here, is there anything else I can do? move him to QT and dose with higher salt? even though he's been in the mild salt for 5-7 days? I know more then 10 days is risky for their organs. sorry and I appreciate the help, just worried about the little guy.

[Colu]

Higher dose of salt 1 table spoon for 1 gallon is what I would do if it gets worse till the kanaplex arrives 

[Rononk]

On 9/1/2024 at 6:47 AM, Colu said:

Higher dose of salt 1 table spoon for 1 gallon is what I would do if it gets worse till the kanaplex arrives 

@ColuOkay, Thanks. I'm assuming I should do this in his QT? I'm at work at the moment, but swinging by LFS to see if I can get filter media later

[Rononk]

On 9/1/2024 at 6:47 AM, Colu said:

Higher dose of salt 1 table spoon for 1 gallon is what I would do if it gets worse till the kanaplex arrives 

@ColuSo I moved Tsuny (my betta) to my 3.5 QT, he's not happy but began treating with Kordon's Methylene blue, the instructions say 10 drops per gallon, but that seems excessive, is there harm is lesser dose? or do I risk just making the situation worse? I put him in and been adding 5-10 drops every hour just to make sure he doesn't have bad reaction. I filled his 3.5G with his old tank water, put his betta log in it with a silk leaf and some silk plants in bottom, just so he's got something to move around, it's pretty small, but if only for 3-5 days I'm hoping he will be fine. he's hiding from me right now but I expected that.

Also can you dose Aquarium salt with Methylene blue? or should I stick to 1 first, I figured if no improvement in 3-5 days I would move him back to his main tank after rinsing him in plastic bowl, then wash out the QT and stuff and if need be, put him back in with salt.

the QT isn't cycled but obviously MB kills bacteria, so do I do water changes and add MB back in for amount taken out? I know I do for salt, but never used MB and read conflicting stuff on it, some said to leave for 3-5 days others say to do water changes.

[Colu]

I would treat following instructions on the bottle for methylene blue. and you can use methylene blue with aquarium that won't cause a negative interaction if your seeing ammonia or nitrite I would water change and add back in the appropriate amount of aquarium salt and methylene blue it shouldn't affect the treatment @Rononk

[Rononk]

On 9/4/2024 at 9:11 PM, Colu said:

I would treat following instructions on the bottle for methylene blue. and you can use methylene blue with aquarium that won't cause a negative interaction if your seeing ammonia or nitrite I would water change and add back in the appropriate amount of aquarium salt and methylene blue it shouldn't affect the treatment @Rononk

@ColuThank you, how should I dose the AS in the 3.5G? I'm assuming a smaller dose just in case? since he's got Mb in with him all ready, I will probably do a 1G change tomorrow as I did fill the QT with half his tank water which is 3 days old now, so if I change 1G it should be safe for a couple days. can't really test the water as the MB is making the colours hard to detect.

[Colu]

On 9/5/2024 at 4:50 AM, Rononk said:

@ColuThank you, how should I dose the AS in the 3.5G? I'm assuming a smaller dose just in case? since he's got Mb in with him all ready, I will probably do a 1G change tomorrow as I did fill the QT with half his tank water which is 3 days old now, so if I change 1G it should be safe for a couple days. can't really test the water as the MB is making the colours hard to detect.

You could do 1 table spoon for 3.5 gallons of aquarium salt what I  would do is daily 1 gallon water changes and redose the methylene blue and salt  to keep any ammonia and nitrite in check 

[rjv23]

is he in general good health? if yes, then I would advise to remove him, and do a 3 step treatment. I use this for paradise fish and for bettas. I have bred both for years. dont get carried away with adding this and that to the tank. even a tank that is not cycled. just do more water changes. bettas and paradise fish are not bothered so much by tap water because they are anabantoids. age the water overnite in a pail with aeration and add some conditioner, you dont need much more.

for the treatment,
use 4 containers with about 2 L in each. 1st container 30gr salt/L, 2nd container, 4mg potassium permanganate (PP) / L; 3rd container 0.5ml hydrogen peroxide /L;  4th container use as a rest tank between baths.
Into the 1st container salt for about 3 mins depending on how the fish acts. this is a very heavy dose and will screw with their buoyancy, so watch them for over stress. they will float at the top but usually will dip around. it need to be strong to kill any fungus, parasites. the salt will shrivel the pathogens on the fish. then into the rest container for 10 mins or until fish is looking ok

Into the 2nd container PP for 5 mins. water should be purple color. again watch for stress but this dose should be fine. PP is an oxidant so be careful, it will lower the oxygen level and can kill. if the fish start to thrash at the surface, move it to the rest container. wait until recovered.

into the 3rd container with peroxide. this is also an oxidant and will remove any necrotic tissue from the PP and clean wounds from the flukes. let the fish sit for 5~10 mins then back to rest tank.

after the treatment use a mixture of acriflavinium chloride as a mild antiseptic/disinfectant in the rest tank for 24 hours

this usually clears up all external problems. just be careful and watch the fish for stress when doing it. healthy fish have no problems, but sometimes weaker fish will have if not monitored.

Edited September 5 by rjv23

[Rononk]

On 9/5/2024 at 6:42 AM, Colu said:

You could do 1 table spoon for 3.5 gallons of aquarium salt what I  would do is daily 1 gallon water changes and redose the methylene blue and salt  to keep any ammonia and nitrite in check 

Okay, I'll do that. I did first 1G change today and re-added the MB, I'll mix some AS in a glass and slowly add it through out the day. Thanks

[Rononk]

On 9/5/2024 at 8:49 AM, rjv23 said:

is he in general good health? if yes, then I would advise to remove him, and do a 3 step treatment. I use this for paradise fish and for bettas. I have bred both for years. dont get carried away with adding this and that to the tank. even a tank that is not cycled. just do more water changes. bettas and paradise fish are not bothered so much by tap water because they are anabantoids. age the water overnite in a pail with aeration and add some conditioner, you dont need much more.

for the treatment,
use 4 containers with about 2 L in each. 1st container 30gr salt/L, 2nd container, 4mg potassium permanganate (PP) / L; 3rd container 0.5ml hydrogen peroxide /L;  4th container use as a rest tank between baths.
Into the 1st container salt for about 3 mins depending on how the fish acts. this is a very heavy dose and will screw with their buoyancy, so watch them for over stress. they will float at the top but usually will dip around. it need to be strong to kill any fungus, parasites. the salt will shrivel the pathogens on the fish. then into the rest container for 10 mins or until fish is looking ok

Into the 2nd container PP for 5 mins. water should be purple color. again watch for stress but this dose should be fine. PP is an oxidant so be careful, it will lower the oxygen level and can kill. if the fish start to thrash at the surface, move it to the rest container. wait until recovered.

into the 3rd container with peroxide. this is also an oxidant and will remove any necrotic tissue from the PP and clean wounds from the flukes. let the fish sit for 5~10 mins then back to rest tank.

after the treatment use a mixture of acriflavinium chloride as a mild antiseptic/disinfectant in the rest tank for 24 hours

this usually clears up all external problems. just be careful and watch the fish for stress when doing it. healthy fish have no problems, but sometimes weaker fish will have if not monitored.

@rjv23He seems in okay health, he's not 100%, but he's not floating on his side or anything, seen him much weaker. It will take me a couple days at least to round up all this stuff as I will probably have to order from Amazon, containers won't be an issue should have some 2L around, but potassium permanganate isn't something I'm familiar with, Peroxide I have in a first aid kit. I'll check around see if I can find PP. so I'll keep the MB with AS treatment going for now until I can get all that, and give him a couple days rest before I start this treatment. Thank you, I appreciate the advice.

I will post back once I have the stuff and if the MB/Salt treatment doesn't work. just to let you or others know what did or didn't work for me.

Edited September 5 by Rononk

[rjv23]

if you have a pond store they might have PP as this is a common treatment for pond disinfection. you can also do the salt treatment first, let him recover. then do the peroxide treatment and let him recover. see if that works. I use peroxide alot to get rid of external problems. this doesnt kill the pathogen like a medication, it oxidizes the cell walls. so again, be careful with it. also your rest tank can have a little salt in the water to help the fish recover. 2~5 mg/L is usually ok

[Rononk]

On 9/5/2024 at 10:04 PM, rjv23 said:

if you have a pond store they might have PP as this is a common treatment for pond disinfection. you can also do the salt treatment first, let him recover. then do the peroxide treatment and let him recover. see if that works. I use peroxide alot to get rid of external problems. this doesnt kill the pathogen like a medication, it oxidizes the cell walls. so again, be careful with it. also your rest tank can have a little salt in the water to help the fish recover. 2~5 mg/L is usually ok

@rjv23I'll check around, I would think there should be a pond store somewhere. This was his 2nd day in MB with a little salt, so hoping to see some progress in next day or 2, but going to get a plastic tub to move him into because he seems super stressed being in 3.5G he's been in 20G for over a year so not much room to hide/move around in, sadly I didn't have any plastic tub on hand so he has to wait until tomorrow and I'll make a run into town. I had to reduce the salt in his QT today as he seemed stressed after a couple hours and lethargic, so did 50% water change, and added just some MB back in. Not sure if it was the salt, or the size of QT, but probably both. so figured I would reduce the stress of one until I can get him into a little bit large tub.

Edited September 6 by Rononk