To cycle, or not to cycle. Plus lots of newbie questions.

[ButtonMcThickums]

TLDR - Cycling advice is confusing, help with test results and questions about emersed plants transitioning to submerged.

Hello, I’m a n00b with a 2.5g tank that I began a dry start on, on June 3. It will be a while (maybe 2 months) until my carpet has filled out more so I decided to get the filter going while that is happening.

3 days ago I put the HOB filter onto a pitcher, added an air stone, a sword plant (labeled assorted at Petsmart) and 15ish well water-rooted terrestrial cuttings. I threw in some soil from one of my plants (I read somewhere that it’s good, bacteria good… laugh if you must? Lol) then 2 days ago I dosed with Dr.Tims ammonia according to the instructions and following their article on cycling. Mind you it took me until today to realize my testing kit does not test for ammonia.
Needless to say the master test kit will be here Thursday.

I think I have a functional grasp of the nitrogen cycle, while still checking Google for reminders on the elements and healthy vs unhealthy parameters. I was planning on continuing this method of cycling regime… However, I just watched Cory’s video (linked below) where he essentially says to just let it do its thing until you see new plant growth or algae. Once you do then it’s “cycled”. He doesn’t love this term I’m seeing 😆. As a newbie his method is very alluring… I’m just curious which (if either) approach you subscribe to and why?

Bonus random questions about plants and some readings:

1.) I used all TC plants for my dry start (I’m assuming everyone knows why) but when I finally flood the tank will everything die off (melt?) first then new growth will come from the root structures?
Will all this die off mess with my parameters? Once I flood it should I trim everything as low as I can before they melt? I have eleocharis acicularis, monte carlo, java moss and littorella uniflora.

2.) Yesterday my nitrates were 25, nitrites 1 and PH 7.6. Today nitrates were 50, nitrites 5, PH was 6.4. Due to the lowering PH and reading of nitrites I did a 50% water change, was that the right call or was it the wrong call?
After about 2 hours I took the readings again and the nitrates were 25-50, nitrites still 5, PH 7.2.
Dr.Tim’s instructions leave a bit to be desired, ex they just say don’t let the nitrates reach 100ppm. With no explanation on what to do if this happens, lol.

 

[daggaz]

So dirt will definitely help advance your cycle.  You don't have fish so you don't have to worry about nitrates so much, your plants will just eat it.  The 100 ppm is a rough safety limit because eventually too much of it will affect the bacteria growth as well (nitrate is the waste product of the nitrite oxidizing bacteria) so as you can imagine sitting around in too much of their own waste isn't advantageous.  This will also help restrict algae from taking hold in this stage as anything that is plant food is also algae food.  Having too high of ammonia can affect nitrite oxidizing bacteria as well, and while I havent seen clear literature on it yet, having too high of nitrite will probably affect the ammonia oxidizing bacteria, too.   When you do a 50% water change, assuming your tapwater has no ammonia, nitrite, or nitrates (well water for example often has nitrates in it), then the ppm's in your tank of those substances will be halved.   It's not something to sweat about, you can get away with never doing a water change or only water changing on occasion, they are just shooting for optimal conditions there.    Ultimately, the bacteria are going to come to a healthy balanced population and your tank will be cycling nitrogen, it just takes time.  

As far as your plants melting, results vary.  I've had air-raised plants totally melt, and others get going without a hitch once submersed.  My own experience with littorella is that it doesn't really melt, but it's slow growing.  My eleocharis completely melted, but new grass is coming up from the roots.   Dr. Barr developed the dry technique, so you gotta assume it just works if done correctly.  

One thing you are probably going to want to do is get some fast growing plants in the same day you fill the tank, and a lot of them.  You can take them out later if you want, but they will help keep your tank from algae crashing by taking up nutrients.  Get some floaters there, too, excellent and easy to maintain for this purpose.  

Edited June 25 by daggaz

[doktor zhivago]

There's a lot going on here for a 2.5 gallon. It will be hard to maintain pH buffer in a pitcher with a bunch of dirt which is why the pH is crashing. The live soil substrates tend to have buffering included to make your life a little easier but straight up dirt is just gonna acidify the water.

[daggaz]

You sure about that?  Will depend on what kind of soil he used, most of it is fairly close to neutral unless its from a pine needle forest or peat swamp (acidic) or full of clay and chalk (basic).  Walstad tanks work in jars, after all.   Otherwise its just changing the water on occasion if needed, which is made easier by the small volume.   

But yeah, if you are getting down towards 6 pH, you need to waterchange. I did read past that detail: low pH stops ammonia oxidizing bacteria from working.  

[Goosedub]

This is really complicated for a noob. Ammonia vs ammonium depending on PH, fishless cycling, dry start, small tank. You are not being easy on yourself. Dry starts work most of the time if you know what you are doing and have experience caring for plants. I would not attempt it myself, but I’m not a huge plant person.  A 2.5 gallon tank is really small so it will be challenging managing nutrient levels. You probably will have die off when you fill the tank and that will spike your nutrients, especially in such a small tank. Why not try something a little easier for your first tank? 

[Matt B]

I have found, that as hard as it is for me, time and patience has made all the difference in getting a tank up and running. I don't chase the test readings and try to control everything. Many times I just wait and see. 🤔..Things will ebb and flow. Experimenting and seeing what happens is have the fun!  

[AtomicSunfish]

Cycling means letting beneficial bacteria accumulate so they can break down animal waste. Unaided the process takes some 2 months, although if seeded with bacteria, it can be sped up somewhat.

Aquatic animals secrete ammonia. Certain bacteria break this down to nitrite, and then others break that down to nitrate. Water changes are needed to remove/dilute that nitrate. Plants can also absorb these nitrogenous waste compounds to build protein, which animals eat and break down into waste, and the cycle continues.

My recommendation: fill your tank up with water. You can have plants if you like. For a fishless cycle, just feed the tank fish foods, which break down to ammonia in the water with no one around to eat them. This will provide the ammonia for your cycle. You could add the chemical ammonia in the recommended concentrations instead, if you prefer. I suggest adding filter squeezings (gunk from an established aquarium) or bottled beneficial bacteria you buy at the store. With this seeding, the process of growing your biological filter can speed up from ~8 weeks down to ~2 weeks. Then you can add a few fish for starters. A small tank like that can’t support very many fish anyway.

People used to do fish-in cycling, but the environment in a new tank is so toxic, that many would get sick and / or die. So these days, we usually do fishless cycling instead.

Edited June 25 by AtomicSunfish

[gardenman]

Unless you do something crazy (constantly cleaning and sterilizing it, or otherwise making an environment unfit for bacteria), a tank will cycle on its own. As long as something is producing ammonia (fish waste, fish respiration, added ammonia, decaying plant matter, uneaten fish food, etc.) the bacteria you want will find their way to the tank and inhabit it and the cycle will start. You can jumpstart a cycle by buying bacterial cultures and dumping them in or by adding debris from an established tank. Even fish (a fish-in cycle) will typically have the bacteria they need to survive in their gut and that can help jumpstart a tank. Just monitor the ammonia and nitrite levels to ensure they don't get too high if you go with a fish in cycle.

In general, tanks find their happy place. Your tank seems to feel its happy place is at a lower pH. That can be due to inadequate buffering in the water, the soil can be affecting the pH. or other issues can cause a drop in pH. (Many houseplants come in a peat-based potting mix and peat is often used to lower the pH. I think you said you added some of the soil from the plants. Many commercially grown houseplants have been treated with a systemic insecticide to prevent insect issues and those are typically applied to the soil of the plants, so adding soil from a commercially grown greenhouse can be problematic for a fish tank.) 

You can fight a tank over where its happy place should be, or you can accept it and stock it accordingly. A lower pH is safer for fish (in general) as it more or less neutralizes the harmful effects of ammonia. If you want your tank's happy place to be at a higher pH, then some crushed coral added to it should help raise the pH and stabilize it a bit. A tank's cycle or ability to support the fish load varies. A single neon tetra in a 150-gallon tank will never need a water change or develop a significant waste issue. The tank will cycle well before there's any chance of the ammonia or nitrites becoming an issue.  But that tank is only cycled for a single neon tetra. Add ten large adult Oscars to that tank and they'd be in all kinds of trouble even though the tank was technically cycled. The bacterial colony to handle a single neon tetra wouldn't be large enough to handle the waste from ten full-grown Oscars. The bacteria would frantically start reproducing to handle the waste, but the ammonia and nitrites would likely reach a toxic level (if unmonitored) before the bacteria could catch up.  

[ButtonMcThickums]

On 6/25/2024 at 3:00 AM, daggaz said:

So dirt will definitely help advance your cycle.  You don't have fish so you don't have to worry about nitrates so much, your plants will just eat it.  The 100 ppm is a rough safety limit because eventually too much of it will affect the bacteria growth as well (nitrate is the waste product of the nitrite oxidizing bacteria) so as you can imagine sitting around in too much of their own waste isn't advantageous.  This will also help restrict algae from taking hold in this stage as anything that is plant food is also algae food.  Having too high of ammonia can affect nitrite oxidizing bacteria as well, and while I havent seen clear literature on it yet, having too high of nitrite will probably affect the ammonia oxidizing bacteria, too.   When you do a 50% water change, assuming your tapwater has no ammonia, nitrite, or nitrates (well water for example often has nitrates in it), then the ppm's in your tank of those substances will be halved.   It's not something to sweat about, you can get away with never doing a water change or only water changing on occasion, they are just shooting for optimal conditions there.    Ultimately, the bacteria are going to come to a healthy balanced population and your tank will be cycling nitrogen, it just takes time.  

As far as your plants melting, results vary.  I've had air-raised plants totally melt, and others get going without a hitch once submersed.  My own experience with littorella is that it doesn't really melt, but it's slow growing.  My eleocharis completely melted, but new grass is coming up from the roots.   Dr. Barr developed the dry technique, so you gotta assume it just works if done correctly.  

One thing you are probably going to want to do is get some fast growing plants in the same day you fill the tank, and a lot of them.  You can take them out later if you want, but they will help keep your tank from algae crashing by taking up nutrients.  Get some floaters there, too, excellent and easy to maintain for this purpose.  

I had also read that when your PH is below 7 the nitrifying bacteria are slowed significantly.
I did test my tap water a while ago and off the top of my head I don’t remember anything of note.
This morning's readings had my PH back down around 6.5 so I added a pinch of baking soda.

That's good that the eleocharis came back! I guess I'll just have to wait and see how mine do once I flood it. As of right now everything is growing well, I've done one trim already just to encourage lateral growth. 

I had planned on water sprite, frog bit (they come today actually, along with an old filter sponge and gravel from a friends tank) and a lot of hornwort to avoid algae. I'll still be keeping some of my terrestrial plants growing with their roots in too. 🙂 

On 6/25/2024 at 4:28 AM, doktor zhivago said:

There's a lot going on here for a 2.5 gallon. It will be hard to maintain pH buffer in a pitcher with a bunch of dirt which is why the pH is crashing. The live soil substrates tend to have buffering included to make your life a little easier but straight up dirt is just gonna acidify the water.

To be fair it was at most 2 tablespoons of organic potting soil with worm castings from my Cebu Blue Pothos, lol. That's good to know I'll have the benefit of buffering once I get the tank filled!

On 6/25/2024 at 7:18 AM, Goosedub said:

This is really complicated for a noob. Ammonia vs ammonium depending on PH, fishless cycling, dry start, small tank. You are not being easy on yourself. Dry starts work most of the time if you know what you are doing and have experience caring for plants. I would not attempt it myself, but I’m not a huge plant person.  A 2.5 gallon tank is really small so it will be challenging managing nutrient levels. You probably will have die off when you fill the tank and that will spike your nutrients, especially in such a small tank. Why not try something a little easier for your first tank? 

 I absolutely agree with you, no lies detected, lol. 
I bought the nano to use with an air stone, just to root my rare houseplants (50ish, mostly Hoya, huge phytophile here) and then fell down a rabbit hole of aquascaping, all things aquariums and here we are. 
We differ in that it is all about the plants for me, the livestock are the frosting on the cake. 🙂

On 6/25/2024 at 8:11 AM, Matt B said:

I have found, that as hard as it is for me, time and patience has made all the difference in getting a tank up and running. I don't chase the test readings and try to control everything. Many times I just wait and see. 🤔..Things will ebb and flow. Experimenting and seeing what happens is have the fun!  

It's a huge relief to know this approach can be taken with aquariums. This is definitely an attitude I share when it comes to houseplants and outdoor gardening. ☺️

On 6/25/2024 at 8:26 AM, AtomicSunfish said:

Cycling means letting beneficial bacteria accumulate so they can break down animal waste. Unaided the process takes some 2 months, although if seeded with bacteria, it can be sped up somewhat.

Aquatic animals secrete ammonia. Certain bacteria break this down to nitrite, and then others break that down to nitrate. Water changes are needed to remove/dilute that nitrate. Plants can also absorb these nitrogenous waste compounds to build protein, which animals eat and break down into waste, and the cycle continues.

My recommendation: fill your tank up with water. You can have plants if you like. For a fishless cycle, just feed the tank fish foods, which break down to ammonia in the water with no one around to eat them. This will provide the ammonia for your cycle. You could add the chemical ammonia in the recommended concentrations instead, if you prefer. I suggest adding filter squeezings (gunk from an established aquarium) or bottled beneficial bacteria you buy at the store. With this seeding, the process of growing your biological filter can speed up from ~8 weeks down to ~2 weeks. Then you can add a few fish for starters. A small tank like that can’t support very many fish anyway.

People used to do fish-in cycling, but the environment in a new tank is so toxic, that many would get sick and / or die. So these days, we usually do fishless cycling instead.

I'm just waiting on the carpets to spread for another month or two before I flood it. I won't be using co2 or anything so filling it now will take the plants much much longer - I've read.
Today I'm picking up a well used filter sponge, ziploc of used gravel, water sprite and java moss from a friend's tanks, to add to my little experiment.
If anything this little tank will just be for Neocaridina's or maybe raising live food for my future pea puffer tank. (Once I've finished planning it out and procuring supplies)
Even if fish do survive the cycle don't they usually end up being pretty sickly?
I'd feel so bad if I played fast and loose and lost living things because of it. 

[daggaz]

On 6/25/2024 at 2:26 PM, AtomicSunfish said:

Cycling mean...

Not sure if you know but I am guessing from your post that you arent familiar with dry cycling.  It's developed by a field leader in aquatic horticulture, and the point is that you do fill up the tank but only to the lowest point of your substrate.  One on hand, this lets the bacteria start building up (I believe Barr uses ammonia additives), but more to his purpose, it allows slow growing plants like crypts to develop their root systems and create a proper carpet, before you flood the tank and their growth is then hampered by a sudden lack of CO2.  In a high tech tank, you can just amp the CO2 levels anyhow especially if you start fishless, but this is just a cheap and easy method that can be used if you have a couple months to let the tank sit and season in the first place.  

When you finally do flood it, the bacteria and the carpet plants are well established, and everything should be fast and easy from there.  

[ButtonMcThickums]

On 6/25/2024 at 9:27 AM, gardenman said:

In general, tanks find their happy place. Your tank seems to feel its happy place is at a lower pH. That can be due to inadequate buffering in the water, the soil can be affecting the pH. or other issues can cause a drop in pH. (Many houseplants come in a peat-based potting mix and peat is often used to lower the pH. I think you said you added some of the soil from the plants. Many commercially grown houseplants have been treated with a systemic insecticide to prevent insect issues and those are typically applied to the soil of the plants, so adding soil from a commercially grown greenhouse can be problematic for a fish tank.) 

You can fight a tank over where its happy place should be, or you can accept it and stock it accordingly. A lower pH is safer for fish (in general) as it more or less neutralizes the harmful effects of ammonia. If you want your tank's happy place to be at a higher pH, then some crushed coral added to it should help raise the pH and stabilize it a bit. 

I almost exclusively grow my plant semi hydroponically but the 4-5 I have in soil are in organic potting soil with only coarse sand, leca (I picked that out first) and worm castings.. but you have a point and you can never be sure.

I didn’t know about how lower PH helps reduce the effects of ammonia, thank you! The guide I am or was following said to keep the PH above 7 or it stalls the nitrifying bacteria development.

This tank is basically my crash course (applying all the conflicting information I’ve been studying, lol) so that once I discover the balance and what works for me, I can go on to the 30g & 55g I have waiting in the wings. 🙂

[ButtonMcThickums]

On 6/25/2024 at 9:53 AM, daggaz said:

the point is that you do fill up the tank but only to the lowest point of your substrate. 

If one were to allow the water to pool the roots will have no access to oxygen. Anaerobic bacteria will quickly rot the roots and then the rest.

Thorough daily misting (without allowing water to collect at the bottom, or minimal) with distilled water + aquatic fertilizer and keeping it covered with saran wrap 24/7 is the ticket! 
There does need to be daily air exchange though, so you peel back a corner for 15 minutes per day.

[daggaz]

On 6/25/2024 at 4:18 PM, ButtonMcThickums said:

If one were to allow the water to pool the roots will have no access to oxygen. Anaerobic bacteria will quickly rot the roots and then the rest.

Then how do plants grow completely submerged? Clearly that's not true (they bring oxygen down to their roots).  Dr. Barr of the Barr Report is a renowned expert on aquatic plants, and is the one who developed and ultimately published the method. 

 

On 6/25/2024 at 3:57 PM, ButtonMcThickums said:

I didn’t know about how lower PH helps reduce the effects of ammonia, thank you! The guide I am or was following said to keep the PH above 7 or it stalls the nitrifying bacteria development.

It's both, so don't go too low or ammonia will spike. I think 6.5 is often mentioned as a safe lower limit, but don't quote me on that. 

Edited June 25 by daggaz

[AtomicSunfish]

On 6/25/2024 at 8:42 AM, ButtonMcThickums said:

Even if fish do survive the cycle don't they usually end up being pretty sickly?

Depends on the species. I used to cycle with guppies and bettas, which unless they’re inbred, are usually quite robust and forgiving of poor water conditions. In their native South America, guppies can be found in polluted and salty waters, and bettas can tolerate the poor water quality of rice paddies and shallow pools. They do better with proper care, of course, and some could get sick and die, but it’s amazing how some species are built to survive poor conditions. Anyway, with fishless cycling, that’s no longer a concern.

On 6/25/2024 at 8:53 AM, daggaz said:

Not sure if you know but I am guessing from your post that you arent familiar with dry cycling.  It's developed by a field leader in aquatic horticulture, and the point is that you do fill up the tank but only to the lowest point of your substrate.  One on hand, this lets the bacteria start building up (I believe Barr uses ammonia additives), but more to his purpose, it allows slow growing plants like crypts to develop their root systems and create a proper carpet, before you flood the tank and their growth is then hampered by a sudden lack of CO2.  In a high tech tank, you can just amp the CO2 levels anyhow especially if you start fishless, but this is just a cheap and easy method that can be used if you have a couple months to let the tank sit and season in the first place.  

When you finally do flood it, the bacteria and the carpet plants are well established, and everything should be fast and easy from there.  

Excellent, thank you! I had never heard of dry cycling before. I’ve only ever done wet cycling. Any particular websites you can point me to, so I can learn more?

[daggaz]

It's from the barr report forums, the full description is posted in some aquaculture journal. 

[ButtonMcThickums]

daggaz I don’t know how to tag you specifically, but fully submerged water roots are a normal capability for almost all plants but the roots still need access to oxygen. Whether that’s replacing water in a vase twice a week, growing plants in semi hydroponics, the nutrient solution must still be swapped out or the roots will die or completely hydroponically but you still have an aeration device. What you’re proposing is possible if there is a way to aerate the roots & the bit of water.

When emersed plants melt, the plant has identified that its environment has changed and grows new leaves that are suitable for submerged growth. There still needs to be oxygen in the water column to survive.

That being said I’m always open to new information!

Interestingly on Reddit the majority of people shun the dry start method in /aquascaping /plantedtank in favour of using c02. I’ve seen it commented many times over that Barr himself no longer uses DSM it or endorses it. Personally I couldn’t find any information to confirm this but it’s assumed to be truth over there.

Edited June 27 by ButtonMcThickums
Context lol

[ButtonMcThickums]

On 6/25/2024 at 4:15 PM, AtomicSunfish said:

Depends on the species. I used to cycle with guppies and bettas, which unless they’re inbred, are usually quite robust and forgiving of poor water conditions. In their native South America, guppies can be found in polluted and salty waters, and bettas can tolerate the poor water quality of rice paddies and shallow pools. They do better with proper care, of course, and some could get sick and die, but it’s amazing how some species are built to survive poor conditions. Anyway, with fishless cycling, that’s no 

Isn’t it funny how animals so beautiful live their natural lives in such low visibility environments?

I knew that of bettas but not about guppies. 🙂

Here are 2 sites I used while looking into the dry start method:

https://buceplant.com/a/amp-1/blogs/aquascaping-guides-and-tips/dry-start-method-step-by-step-guide
 

https://www.aquasabi.com/aquascaping-wiki_aquascaping_the-dry-start-method

[daggaz]

On 6/27/2024 at 8:37 PM, ButtonMcThickums said:

daggaz I don’t know how to tag you specifically...

but fully submerged water roots are a normal capability for almost all plants but the roots still need access to oxygen. Whether that’s replacing water in a vase twice a week, growing plants in semi hydroponics, the nutrient solution must still be swapped out or the roots will die

I dont know how to, either, so it's cool, bro.

No.  My tank is getting on 6 or 7 weeks old, was rapidly cycled, is heavily stocked with fish and is heavily planted, and has only had a single water change.  My plants (and fish) are thriving.  And this is a dirted tank, with a purposely anoxic (if you believe that) soil layer.  

Edited June 27 by daggaz

[Rube_Goldfish]

You type the @ symbol and the the person's username to tag someone.

@ButtonMcThickums, there wpuld still be dissolved oxygen in the water, at the root level under/in the substrate, though, for the plant to use but also for the microbiome there. Or am I misunderstanding you?