White growth on betta fish lip; similar issue on a neon tetra

[aminowrimo]

Hi all. This turns out to be a two-year-long story, so my apologies, and thank you for reading.

tl;dr: Neons exhibited white lumps on mouth. Treatment did not work but they had QOL, so kept them. Bought new group of neons and cardinals that never showed those symptoms; recently added a betta and more neons. Betta is now developing a lump on bottom lip.

Two years ago in February, my husband and I bought our first fish: a group of 6 neon tetras that developed what looks very similar to the tetras in this post: https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/37980-what-is-on-my-fish. The tank had been cycled for a month and we carefully kept track of water quality after adding fish. We could not find the advice given in that post anywhere on the internet, and so gave up after two months doing treatment (detailed below) and added them to our display tank. We obtained new neon and cardinal tetras and they did fine other than stress ich; they were in quarantine for I believe 3-4 weeks before adding to the tank. 

On May 11 of this year, because our population had dwindled, we purchased 15 more neon tetras and an alien betta fish named Fonsi. All the new fish went into quarantine in our QT tank, but that tank has a HOB filter and I was worried about Fonsi's fins (I baffled as much as I could but was dissatisfied), so I moved him into the display tank on May 13, which had 7 cardinal tetras that looked fine, and 1 neon tetra from the original group. On May 25, I moved the 11 neons remaining in QT into the display tank. On May 14, Fonsi developed a tiny white lump; I kept an eye. I originally thought it might be an injury due to having fed him with tweezers and him bashing into them. I started doing 50% water changes daily on May 21 because I noticed some fin tearing. The lump seems the same size over the past week or so, but I'd like to head this off at the pass if that's something I can do. I added catappa leaves hoping that would help. He has no change in behavior or appetite; still ravenous and excited to see me.

The current water parameters are as follows (I did the most recent 50% water change about 12 hours ago):
- Display tank is 20g high.
- Light is the Easy LED Light; it was the original light that came with the tank until May 23. Light was at 50% brightness for 6 hours a day until Sunday when I realized it might be stressing Fonsi out; now it is down to 30%.
- pH: 6.6 (using ACO strip and verifying with API liquid test)
- Nitrates: 10 (using ACO strip; this was probably at 20-40 when adding the betta; I did a 30% water change right before adding him and I did roughly biweekly 10%-30% water changes after adding him to the tank because I was motivated to work on removing some of the mulm and hair algae that had built up in the tank)
- Hardness: 0-25 (using ACO strip)
- Nitrite: 0 (using ACO strip)
- Ammonia: 0 (using API liquid test kit)
- KH/Buffer: 0-40 (using ACO strip)
- Water Temperature: 77.5 (right now; last night it was about 78.5 but the house was also much warmer then too; the heater is set to the 79 switch instead of the 75 switch).
- Food: Tetras always got hikari micro pellets and treats of either (frozen) brine shrimp or bloodworms. Fonsi got vibra-bites since we had them on hand. Bought Fluval bug bites which arrived Monday and they've since been getting a mix of that and hikari micro pellets (Fonsi gets bug bites too). 

Treatments we did with the original 6 neons (from memory) after they developed lumps:
- salt treatments at Lvl 1 and likely lvl 2. I don't remember if we went up to level 3.
- Full Maracyn treatment x2
- Maracyn 2 treatment
- Kanaplex
- Ich-X.
- Treated for parasites
- When not expressly contra-indicated by medication instructions, we did 30-50% water changes almost daily (skipping 0-2 days a week, not in a row) because many sources said that was key.
- Treatment(s) continued for about 2 months total before we finally gave up.

At no time did the neons look skinny or as if they were wasting away. They all ate and were interested by food. There is one survivor and he is pictured below. He looks essentially as he did two years ago when we finally gave up treatment. All of the cardinal tetras he is living with look great, except for one cardinal whose picture I have added. New fish look normal.

Fonsi's lump is pictured below; first showing on May 14 and one picture as of yesterday (tail tearing in the second pic already looks healed as of this morning)

Below is Fonsi when we first got him:

Full tank picture, when adding Fonsi on May 13 (parameters were 0, 0, and 20 at this time) and as of this morning; :

The tank has ramshorn snails and one tagalong shrimp (he swam into the bag with the neons we recently got).  The banana plant and red wendtii are new, but the swords have been the sole plant survivors since we set up the tank.

I suspect Fonsi the betta may have to be moved to my 10g quarantine tank, which I've been ghost feeding since moving the neons. I'm waiting on the ACO sponge filter which I ordered and which should arrive Friday; I'm hesitant to move the betta until I have that sponge filter, but I suspect he is either being fin-nipped by the neons or is rubbing against the stump I have in the tank; another reason I have been doing water changes and monitoring. I was expecting to receive some hornwort and floaters in the mail last week that would help break up the line of sight, but USPS lost the package and the seller is resending for it to arrive next week on Thursday or Friday.

We rent from the people that live right below us and our lease allows for maximum one tank, with one temporary one for quarantine. I like our landlords. I don't want to end up having to set up multiple permanent tanks and I'm not interested in hiding a tank from them.

One more element: we are going on a family hike with my in-laws in mid-June and will be gone some number of weeks. We have a person we trust to do water changes and we have the ACO automatic feeder. 

My questions are as follows:
1. Best course of action to help the betta survive and heal? 
2. Should I euthanize the remaining original neon tetra?
3. Should the other tetras be returned to give the betta the best shot?
4. Should I remove the stump to prevent fin tearing in the betta? Have been currently keeping it for line of sight reasons.
5. Should I euthanize the cardinal tetra with the weird tail?
6. ETA: Do you have a suggestion for a water change schedule going forward?

At this point, I am feeling extremely discouraged. Adding Fonsi the betta to the tank really re-invigorated my love of the hobby and I've been really enjoying the aquarium since we got him. But the drawn-out treatment of the neons and not having any answers the first time around pretty much destroyed my desire to have fish the first time around. I don't want to go through that again. There have been a few times before getting Fonsi when I was ready to take the tetras back to my LFS, but my husband is attached to them for nostalgia reasons and so I decided not to. However, I talked to him last night and he said he understood if that was the best course of action for Fonsi. I'm emotionally attached to Fonsi and watching him and interacting with him has been really healing; I haven't really had an emotional attachment to the tetras since the entire fiasco 2 years ago, and we bought new neons only because I think when I have purchased animals I owe them a healthy life free from stress, and the cardinals/neon were seeming to get more and more shy.

 

Thank you again for reading and for any help you can provide.
 

Edited May 29 by aminowrimo
forgot one question

[aminowrimo]

I've had some time to digest the thread I linked to earlier and actually comprehend what was said; I think I got super worked up about it because I was so traumatized from the first time around. If we'd known then what we know now... 🙄 But all I can do in this hobby is learn and do better!

These are my takeaways:

• Because the original group of neons did not respond to treatment, this is likely neon tetra disease (NTD). Water changes have no effect on the disease but can combat stress.
• The best course of action for the unhealthy-looking neon is to humanely euthanize before it can die and infect other fish. 
• It was mentioned in that thread that NTD can spread to angelfish, danio, rasboras, barbs, guppies, goldfish, and other tetras. I don't know if this can spread to bettas, but from a quick Google it seems like anyone who nips the fins of an infected fish could be infected. So it's possible the betta now also has NTD.
• Kanaplex could treat this if it is bacterial. The best course of action for Fonsi would likely be to treat it with Kanaplex (which I still have) and then evaluate if he gets better. Hopefully he does. If not, he is likely now infected with NTD and should be a solo fish or only kept with these tetras for the rest of his life.
• The "nuke it all" option is likely the safest way of dealing with the fish and the tank. Toss hardscape and plants, substrate, etc. 3% hydrogen peroxide solution run through the filter for 24 hours at a time followed by full drainage and drying out of the tank for multiple days before repeating the process. I could potentially also run the planted tank with no livestock in it for three months, but the nuke it all option is attractive to me in its simplicity. UV sterilization is also an option but potentially pricey. 
• I found this article as well which suggests some other ways to evaluate if possibly a neon has NTD: https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/11-12-neon-disease/ the S-curve and swimming in a head down posture seem to be good ways to tell. I wish I'd realized this blog had more information than just the "white patches" information I was able to find.

Question maybe folks can answer:

• Does NTD affect shrimp or snails? I like my ramshorns and would like to keep them around for the next tank set-up.
• I have had one fish with the snout chondromas die in the tank and was not able to find it. The cardinal tetras were there at the time. Is it safest to assume that all the cardinal tetras have the spore and cull them too?

My next steps:

1. Euthanize the neon tetra showing symptoms and the cardinal tetra with the weird tail.
2. The aquarium co-op sponge filter should arrive Friday. At that point I'll move Fonsi to a bucket and start treating with Kanaplex and hope he clears up. 
3. Keep an eye on all other neons for any chondromas or white patches and euthanize immediately if they show symptoms.
4. Make a decision, considering my time away from the house and the regular headache this will be in future, if it is better to 
   1. return the neon tetras I just purchased to the LFS; the Aquarium Science article says that they can successfully fight off the disease, then nuke the tank.
   2. humanely euthanize all the fish, then nuke the tank.
   3. some combination of the above, then nuke the tank.
   4. keep only neon tetras for the next 4-5 years until these ones pass naturally, then nuke the tank.

Edited May 30 by aminowrimo

[Whitecloud09]

@Colu, he could probably help. Hopefully, he show up soon for you @aminowrimo

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 8:07 AM, Whitecloud09 said:

he could probably help. Hopefully, he show up soon for you

Thank you very much!

I'm not sure if the cardinal tetra actually needs to be euthanized? But I've caught the neon tetra with chondromas and will be euthanizing it now.

ETA: clove oil has been applied as Colu recommended in the other thread; RIP little OG neon.

Edited May 30 by aminowrimo

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/30/2024 at 9:12 AM, aminowrimo said:

Thank you very much!

I'm not sure if the cardinal tetra actually needs to be euthanized? But I've caught the neon tetra with chondromas and will be euthanizing it now.

ETA: clove oil has been applied as Colu recommended in the other thread; RIP little OG neon.

Poor guy RIP. Sorry for the loss. So your cardinal tetra and betta are the ones dealing with this illness now correct? @aminowrimo

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 9:33 AM, Whitecloud09 said:

Poor guy RIP. Sorry for the loss. So your cardinal tetra and betta are the ones dealing with this illness now correct? @aminowrimo

Thank you @Whitecloud09. ❤️ I'm not sure if the cardinal tetra is dealing with this; he only has the bottom of his caudal fin missing (pic here again). The betta has what could be a snout chondroma but like I said I'm emotionally attached so unless it's for sure I would probably try to treat with kanaplex or whatever Colu recommends to see if he has a shot.

 

[Whitecloud09]

Got it. Yes colu will be very helpful with this. Or visit this topic he has on different disease treatments @aminowrimo.
https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/15673-the-most-effective-treatments-of-commonly-posted-diseases/

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 10:24 AM, Whitecloud09 said:

Got it. Yes colu will be very helpful with this. Or visit this topic he has on different disease treatments @aminowrimo.
https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/15673-the-most-effective-treatments-of-commonly-posted-diseases/

Thanks, just went through the thread and I think for the cardinal it could be fin rot that was just resolved but the fin didn't grow back or NTD, for the betta... 🤷‍♀️ (it's not on the list nor has anyone posted about something similar).

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/30/2024 at 10:33 AM, aminowrimo said:

Thanks, just went through the thread and I think for the cardinal it could be fin rot that was just resolved but the fin didn't grow back or NTD, for the betta... 🤷‍♀️ (it's not on the list nor has anyone posted about something similar).

Interesting, @Colu hopefully will show up soon becuase I am clueless too, and want to know what this is. If you already did all these treatments posted above, idk at this point sadly. Maybe take out the tetras from the tank with the betta. Sorry for this situation @aminowrimo.

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 10:36 AM, Whitecloud09 said:

Interesting, @Colu hopefully will show up soon becuase I am clueless too, and want to know what this is. If you already did all these treatments posted above, idk at this point sadly. Maybe take out the tetras from the tank with the betta. Sorry for this situation @aminowrimo.

I really appreciate your support; at this point I'd really just like answers too!

I'm remembering now that yesterday I saw Fonsi poop and it was dark brown clumps mixed with some white so now I'm thinking possible parasites too? But I want to make sure I have a filter that won't hurt him before I move him from the tank with the sponge filter into the QT tank, it just would not be great to have him fighting a current.

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/30/2024 at 10:45 AM, aminowrimo said:

I really appreciate your support; at this point I'd really just like answers too!

I'm remembering now that yesterday I saw Fonsi poop and it was dark brown clumps mixed with some white so now I'm thinking possible parasites too? But I want to make sure I have a filter that won't hurt him before I move him from the tank with the sponge filter into the QT tank, it just would not be great to have him fighting a current.

You have done ich x for him right? If it’s parasites then ich x is best treatment, also not sure if I didn’t read close enough but have you done aquarium salt? It helps with a ton of things. @aminowrimo

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 10:47 AM, Whitecloud09 said:

You have done ich x for him right? If it’s parasites then ich x is best treatment, also not sure if I didn’t read close enough but have you done aquarium salt? It helps with a ton of things. @aminowrimo

For the betta I have not started any treatment of any kind because if this is NTD that he caught, I didn't want to start doing treatments that won't help at all. I will take some time today to see if I can further baffle the HOB in the QT tank and move him over there to start doing a full treatment. I don't know if this is correct, but it feels to me like sticking him in a tank with a flow that's too heavy would just be more stressful than helpful, especially if I'm also medicating.

The OG neons got every treatment under the sun 😅

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/30/2024 at 10:54 AM, aminowrimo said:

For the betta I have not started any treatment of any kind because if this is NTD that he caught, I didn't want to start doing treatments that won't help at all. I will take some time today to see if I can further baffle the HOB in the QT tank and move him over there to start doing a full treatment. I don't know if this is correct, but it feels to me like sticking him in a tank with a flow that's too heavy would just be more stressful than helpful, especially if I'm also medicating.

The OG neons got every treatment under the sun 😅

Ok i see. Yes bettas are not fans of high flow. Slower flow is better, you could even buy a sponge filter and add it for a couple of weeks then tie HOB out. Could be risky for the BB. @aminowrimo

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 10:56 AM, Whitecloud09 said:

Ok i see. Yes bettas are not fans of high flow. Slower flow is better, you could even buy a sponge filter and add it for a couple of weeks then tie HOB out. Could be risky for the BB. @aminowrimo

I ordered an Aquarium co-op sponge that is arriving on Saturday! I bought one for the 10g quarantine and one for the 20g so I have a spare. 

 

Poor Colu is going to have so much to read 😅

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/30/2024 at 11:01 AM, aminowrimo said:

I ordered an Aquarium co-op sponge that is arriving on Saturday! I bought one for the 10g quarantine and one for the 20g so I have a spare. 

 

Poor Colu is going to have so much to read 😅

Yes I know, he is very helpful tho, he helped me with my betta and almost saved his life, but the poor guy was too far gone 😢. He should read this before the end of the day. I have not read every bit of it either, but I am reading this now… 

@aminowrimo.

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 1:06 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

Yes I know, he is very helpful tho, he helped me with my betta and almost saved his life, but the poor guy was too far gone 😢. He should read this before the end of the day. I have not read every bit of it either, but I am reading this now… 

@aminowrimo.

Yeah I elected to add all the information rather than leave something out, and unfortunately it's just a lot of information.

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/30/2024 at 1:10 PM, aminowrimo said:

Yeah I elected to add all the information rather than leave something out, and unfortunately it's just a lot of information.

It’s ok, I enjoy it, reading is my favorite pastime, besides fish keeping lol

[aminowrimo]

Same here!!


Just checked and sponge filter is actually coming tomorrow. I could potentially move the HOB to the main tank and put the current sponge in the QT to treat Fonsi; I forgot I could do since the tetras really don't care about the lower flow from the HOB. It might upset the plants but I'm ok with that. (though I hope the crypt and banana lily do ok!)

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/30/2024 at 1:17 PM, aminowrimo said:

Same here!!


Just checked and sponge filter is actually coming tomorrow. I could potentially move the HOB to the main tank and put the current sponge in the QT to treat Fonsi; I forgot I could do since the tetras really don't care about the lower flow from the HOB. It might upset the plants but I'm ok with that. (though I hope the crypt and banana lily do ok!)

That sounds good. The plants should be fine too as well @aminowrimo.

Just buying time and waiting for @Colu…….😁

Edited May 30 by Whitecloud09

[Colu]

I think your neon tetras  have NTD what I would do is essential quarantine any fish that have been in contact with the neon tetra and just monitor them if any start to show symptoms then I would euthanize them with clove if you think there suffering before they die in the tank to answer your question Bettas can get NTD it's possible it's the start of a snout chondroma what I would do is add no new fish to this tank add Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties and monitor and when the final fish in this tank die then I would steriliser everything in the tank 3% hydrogen peroxide solution and leave it 3 months without fish @aminowrimo

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 4:02 PM, Colu said:

I think your neon tetras  have NTD what I would do is essential quarantine any fish that have been in contact with the neon tetra and just monitor them if any start to show symptoms then I would euthanize them with clove if you think there suffering before they die in the tank to answer your question Bettas can get NTD it's possible it's the start of a snout chondroma what I would do is add no new fish to this tank add Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties and monitor and when the final fish in this tank die then I would steriliser everything in the tank 3% hydrogen peroxide solution and leave it 3 months without fish @aminowrimo

Thank you! So for the betta there's no sense in trying Kanaplex or anything like that? When I sterilize with 3% hydrogen peroxide would I also have to throw out my substrate and plants, or would those be able to be kept?

[Colu]

On 5/30/2024 at 10:53 PM, aminowrimo said:

Thank you! So for the betta there's no sense in trying Kanaplex or anything like that? When I sterilize with 3% hydrogen peroxide would I also have to throw out my substrate and plants, or would those be able to be kept?

You can add 3% hydrogen peroxide to the tank and leave the filters running after 24hr it will turn into H20 and oxygen it's a very fine line between a harmful dose that would kill your plants and a safe dose I would do a that a couple of time them leave your tank running without fish for a minimum of 3 month and and sterilise all your nets and buckets in high dose of hydrogen peroxide what i would do with your betta is add Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties and monitor you might have to add one leaf per gallon to get a beneficial effect  don't think kanaplex would be beneficial 

Edited May 30 by Colu

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:10 PM, Colu said:

You can add 3% hydrogen peroxide to the tank and leave the filters running after 24hr it will turn into H20 and oxygen it's a very fine line between a harmful dose that would kill your plants and a safe dose I would do a that a couple of time them leave your tank running without fish for a minimum of 3 month and and sterilise all your nets and buckets in high dose of hydrogen peroxide what i would do with your betta is add Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties and monitor you might have to add one leaf per gallon to get a beneficial effect  don't think kanaplex would be beneficial 

Ok! So I will add a bunch of catappa to the tank and monitor the betta. I'll make a decision about the neons and taking apart the tank over the course of the next week. Thanks so much for your help and for saving me a lot of time dosing medication!

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:31 PM, aminowrimo said:

Ok! So I will add a bunch of catappa to the tank and monitor the betta. I'll make a decision about the neons and taking apart the tank over the course of the next week. Thanks so much for your help and for saving me a lot of time dosing medication!

Yes that was very helpful, thanks colu for helping here as I was clueless! Meds is not always the answer that is for sure. 

[aminowrimo]

I am very glad I had just ordered a batch of catappa leaves because that whole thing just went into the tank. We're going to have a darkwater scape now!