Deficiency Examples.

[JoeQ]

I thought having a thread with real life examples of deficiencies (as opposed to artistic charts) would be an asset to the community.  Sooooo, heres my deficiency example!

@Seattle_Aquarist ,
@Mmiller2001 or any other fertilizer expert. Am I correct in assuming this is a magnesium deficiency caused by an overdose of potassium?

[Mmiller2001]

On 5/24/2024 at 9:58 AM, JoeQ said:

I thought having a thread with real life examples of deficiencies (as opposed to artistic charts) would be an asset to the community.  Sooooo, heres my deficiency example!

@Seattle_Aquarist ,
@Mmiller2001 or any other fertilizer expert. Am I correct in assuming this is a magnesium deficiency caused by an overdose of potassium?

How much K are you dosing and how much Fe; also what percent water changes and how often? Which micro mix are you using?

Edited May 24 by Mmiller2001

[JoeQ]

On 5/24/2024 at 12:00 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

How much K are you dosing and how much Fe; also what percent water changes and how often? Which micro mix are you using?

At the time when I noticed I was dosing 60~70ppm of K and 0.33 of FE weekly. This was not intentional, I forgot to account for the amount of K in GH booster.......

I've since lowered potassium (K) to 30ppm and FE about 0.2. The new growth looks good, but that deficiency pattern still haunts me, and thought it would be a good example to start a deficiency thread.

[JoeQ]

As for water change 50% weekly, and for micromix at the time I was using GLAs edta + dpta mix (again no magnesium). Ive since switched back to csm+b. All fertz are dosed nightly after the aquarium lights go off.

Edited May 24 by JoeQ

[Mmiller2001]

On 5/24/2024 at 10:37 AM, JoeQ said:

At the time when I noticed I was dosing 60~70ppm of K and 0.33 of FE weekly. This was not intentional, I forgot to account for the amount of K in GH booster.......

I've since lowered potassium (K) to 30ppm and FE about 0.2. The new growth looks good, but that deficiency pattern still haunts me, and thought it would be a good example to start a deficiency thread.

At 30ppm K, I will say no. I dose over 40ppm. I’d raise the micro mix Fe as proxy to .45ppm. 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 5/24/2024 at 8:58 AM, JoeQ said:

I thought having a thread with real life examples of deficiencies (as opposed to artistic charts) would be an asset to the community.  Sooooo, heres my deficiency example!

@Seattle_Aquarist ,
@Mmiller2001 or any other fertilizer expert. Am I correct in assuming this is a magnesium deficiency caused by an overdose of potassium?

Hi @JoeQ,

When the interveinal chlorosis forms in the leaves as they get older (but they look fine when they emerge) it is typically an issue with insufficient available magnesium. 

Quote

Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

Notice I say "insufficient available" and not deficiency.  What is the difference?  A deficiency would indicate not enough is being dosed.  "Insufficient available" on the other hand may mean that a sufficient amount is being dosed however something is impeding the uptake of the nutrient.  If we look a Mulder Chart we see that two nutrients can effect the uptake of magnesium: calcium and potassium (potash). 

So in your case it may not be an issue of not dosing enough magnesium but rather too much potassium or calcium in the water effecting the uptake of the magnesium that is present. 

In your case, if overdosing potassium has been happening then that may be the cause of the magnesium insufficiency.  If it were my tank I would do a couple of water changes back-to-back to reset the tank parameters, start dosing the correct amounts, and over the next month or so see if the interveinal chlorosis continues to appear in new leaves as they mature.  Hope this helps! -Roy

[Mmiller2001]

I only dose 5ppm Mg, and there’s no other sources of Mg entering my water.

[JoeQ]

On 5/24/2024 at 1:27 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @JoeQ,

When the interveinal chlorosis forms in the leaves as they get older (but they look fine when they emerge) it is typically an issue with insufficient available magnesium. 

Notice I say "insufficient available" and not deficiency.  What is the difference?  A deficiency would indicate not enough is being dosed.  "Insufficient available" on the other hand may mean that a sufficient amount is being dosed however something is impeding the uptake of the nutrient.  If we look a Mulder Chart we see that two nutrients can effect the uptake of magnesium: calcium and potassium (potash). 

So in your case it may not be an issue of not dosing enough magnesium but rather too much potassium or calcium in the water effecting the uptake of the magnesium that is present. 

In your case, if overdosing potassium has been happening then that may be the cause of the magnesium insufficiency.  If it were my tank I would do a couple of water changes back-to-back to reset the tank parameters, start dosing the correct amounts, and over the next month or so see if the interveinal chlorosis continues to appear in new leaves as they mature.  Hope this helps! -Roy

Yes, it confirmed my suspicion in the beginning of the thread. An example of a Magnesium deficiency, but from an overdose of potassium. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 5/24/2024 at 11:31 AM, JoeQ said:

Yes, it confirmed my suspicion in the beginning of the thread. An example of a Magnesium deficiency, but from an overdose of potassium. 

Not true.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/excess-of-k-na-ca-mg-fact-or-myth.25946/
 

[JoeQ]

On 5/24/2024 at 2:32 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Not true.

How so? 

[Mmiller2001]

On 5/24/2024 at 12:33 PM, JoeQ said:

How so? 

That level of K didn’t block anything. These are aquatic plants under water. K blocking Mg may/might be true for terrestrial plants, but not in our underwater gardens. Read the link above, a good start.

If I’m seeing what you are seeing in your pictures, the problem is you’re not dosing enough of your micro mix.

Or you are just low somewhere else, but I’m seeing micro deficiency.

Edited May 24 by Mmiller2001

[JoeQ]

On 5/24/2024 at 3:09 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

That level of K didn’t block anything. These are aquatic plants under water. K blocking Mg may/might be true for terrestrial plants, but not in our underwater gardens. Read the link above, a good start.

If I’m seeing what you are seeing in your pictures, the problem is you’re not dosing enough of your micro mix.

Or you are just low somewhere else, but I’m seeing micro deficiency.

Thanks for the link, its an interesting read. So in your opinion its not a Mg deficiency but rather a micro deficiency? 

[Mmiller2001]

On 5/24/2024 at 1:24 PM, JoeQ said:

Thanks for the link, its an interesting read. So in your opinion its not a Mg deficiency but rather a micro deficiency? 

Depends, but that’s what I’m seeing. How much Mg is in your tank?

[JoeQ]

On 5/24/2024 at 3:25 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Depends, but that’s what I’m seeing. How much Mg is in your tank?

I dont know my exact numbers, my water report is lacking.. It is medium hard, the cheap~o test I bought puts me under 12ppm, and I add about 2.1ppm through liquid gh booster. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 5/24/2024 at 1:33 PM, JoeQ said:

I dont know my exact numbers, my water report is lacking.. It is medium hard, the cheap~o test I bought puts me under 12ppm, and I add about 2.1ppm through liquid gh booster. 

This tank was 8ppm Mg

And I’ve lowered to 5ppm for this one

Your Mg is fine unless that test kit is completely broken.

[JoeQ]

I wonder if it was more that my tank didnt like the edta + dtpa micro mix? 

[Mmiller2001]

On 5/24/2024 at 2:02 PM, JoeQ said:

I wonder if it was more that my tank didnt like the edta + dtpa micro mix? 

What’s the pH before and after CO2?

[JoeQ]

,

On 5/24/2024 at 4:16 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

What’s the pH before and after CO2?

I have not ran the whole co2 ph test. But currently im at about 7.2, I do not believe this changes much throughout the day

[Mmiller2001]

On 5/24/2024 at 2:50 PM, JoeQ said:

,

I have not ran the whole co2 ph test. But currently im at about 7.2, I do not believe this changes much throughout the day

Double your micro dose, may need a bit more than double. But doubling will be easy to remember.

[JoeQ]

On 5/24/2024 at 5:12 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Double your micro dose, may need a bit more than double. But doubling will be easy to remember.

👍

[EricksonAquatics]

I like the idea of having a real life version of the co-op plant deficiency chart (or something similar)! It would be neat to have a compilation of pictures labeled with their deficiency and how to prevent/“treat” it. 
Could be helpful for us new hobbyists who are struggling with plant health.