Beach Cruiser Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 (edited) So I'm trying to tweak my 100ga make over to be a bit more hospitable to the mentioned plant. I've had a windelov for almost 6 years & it just abides. Not much growth in either injected CO2 tanks or low tech. Above has it was on the right, still the same size today. Recently added some regular Java & I'd like them to do well. Would you please take a look at the parameters & give your opinion? 100 gal @ 78° Ph 7.0 GH 54ppm or 3° KH 36ppm or 2° Nitrate 10-20ppm Nitrite 0ppm Ammonia 0ppm Ferts: low tech weekly per RB calc with Nilocg KN03, KH2PO4, K2SO4 & CSM+B (minimal KNO3 right now) Tabs under root feeders 1/3-1/2 water change weekly Filtration: 2x fluval 407 Lights: Nicrew 48" classic led plus (2 hrs "ramp up/down" each side of main period, estimated under 30 par) Beamswork 48" FSPEC (4 hrs main period, 41 par) Bioload: Large Angelfish pair, 10 Rasbora, 5 bronze corys, 4 Otos Substrate: BDBS + an "inert" aqua soil i can't recall. City water values: Anything missing or crazy? Thanks in advance! Edited April 29 by Beach Cruiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seattle_Aquarist Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 Hi @Beach Cruiser Nothing seems totally out of range. It is difficult to tell from you picture, are the java ferns and anubias attached to hardscape? Could I please have some close-up shots of the java fern and the others indicated by the arrows? -Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Cruiser Posted April 28 Author Share Posted April 28 (edited) Thanks Roy! That's an old shot with CO2... it's always been on hardscape with rhizomes above the substrate. Same for all epiphytes in the tank. Currently, it's in teardown mode & super rough. I'll try to get some close ups when the lights are on. Edited April 28 by Beach Cruiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seattle_Aquarist Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 Hi @Beach Cruiser, Still need closer shots of those plants to look for clues as to what is going on. Are the parameter you provided about current? Full tank shots provide no detail of leaves and stems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Cruiser Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 (edited) Yes, all the above parameters are current... taken within the last couple days & stable for 3+ weeks. Apologies for the less than professional photos! The odd little tan spots are random glare off the glass... Edited April 29 by Beach Cruiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirb Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) Your parameters look good to grow just about any plant. Could maybe boost your ca/mg(gh) a little. Java ferns are just slow and take a lot of time to take off. Edit. Also your lighting is pretty week, if you think something is holding you back I'd upgrade that. Edited April 29 by Kirb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Cruiser Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 (edited) On 4/29/2024 at 11:20 AM, Kirb said: Your parameters look good to grow just about any plant. Could maybe boost your ca/mg(gh) a little. Java ferns are just slow and take a lot of time to take off. Edit. Also your lighting is pretty week, if you think something is holding you back I'd upgrade that. Thanks, Kirb! I've had this one for 5+ years & it's never grown well. I'm at the high end of "low tech" lighting at 41par (per reported tests) & don't really want to go back to CO2 just yet. I'm afraid I'd just have an algae farm if i upped the lighting much... Old pic, same lights with CO2. Same java fern lower right. Edited April 29 by Beach Cruiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seattle_Aquarist Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 Hi @Beach Cruiser, What I don't see in your pictures is much root growth on the java ferns. The root growth should be very thick with many fine, black roots. If the roots don't grow there is minimal uptake of nutrients and the resulting growth will be minimal at best. The nitrate level (NO3) looks good. Assuming the readings from your water company are in ppm (please verify) then your water is very, very soft. I too have soft water here in Seattle (<1 dKH / <3/ dGH) where snow melt and rain are the primary sources of water for our utility. And I too, at one time, dosed using the EI method and it can work well for growing plants. A little more information please. How much on a weekly basis were you dosing of the following before any recent changes: KNO3: K2SO4: KH2PO4: Micro: Also which micro-nutrient are you using...CSM+B? What brand of root tabs are you using? Thank you, -Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Cruiser Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 (edited) They weren't getting much besides fish/food waste & occasionally a shot of Easy Iron for about a year. But they didn't grow much at full EI + CO2 & 10hr photo period, either. Hence my quandary. Currently: I have the 90ga spoons from NA & dose their dry ferts + csm+b. Aq co-op tabs. From what i info can find that would be: KNO3 - 3/4 tsp KH2P - 3/16 tsp K2SO - 1/4 tsp CSM+B - 1/4 tsp That dose is for full EI (3x per week). I have cut it to basically 1/3. Mix macros per above in 500ml & spread it out over the week. Same for micros (alternate days). Water change on Sundays. Anubias & others are responding well. Yes to ppm for municipal survey. Soft water is why i gravitated towards a SA tank. Much easier to raise fish in what they like, rather than fighting your water. As far as roots, should i raise them off the substrate more? (On driftwood, etc) Lived in Edmonds & Mukilteo in the 80s...good times! Edited April 29 by Beach Cruiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seattle_Aquarist Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 Hi @Beach Cruiser Even when dosing only once a week that is still quite a bit of nutrients for basically slow growing plants. Could you clarify please...are you still using CO2 or not? No, I don't think the plants need to raised higher, actually my healthy java ferns grow roots and rhizomes off of the hardscape and across the surface of the substrate. Let's look at the specifics 1) more than adequate amounts of macro-nutrients (K, N, P) and micro-nutrients (with the possible exceptions of potassium (K) which should be about 3/4 teaspoon not 1/4 teaspoon) and iron (due to the EDTA chelate in CSM+B used in a pH of 7.0 (See fig 1)) 2) more than adequate light 3) adequate water change schedule. What's missing? How about secondary nutrients. What are the secondary nutrients? They are calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), and sulfur (S). Why are they called "secondary nutrients"? Because they are needed in lower quantities than macro-nutrients and larger quantities than micro-nutrients. What are the primary purposes of calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), and sulfur (S) especially with regards to root growth and photosynthesis (which generates the 'sugars' that plants need to grow. Studies have shown that Insufficient magnesium inhibits root growth as well as photosynthesis, insufficient sulfur (S) inhibits root elongation and calcium (Ca) assists nitrogen fixation and phosphate uptake required for growth including roots (see fig. 1 below). Now let's talk about your tank. In my opinion you are doing everything 90% of everything correctly - period. I had difficulty growing plants in my soft water as well when I started. Stems would fungus, lower leaves would drop off prematurely, leaves would emerge disfigured, and leaves on some species would develop a "leaf hook" at the tip or the leaf margins would curl (up or down) forming a 'cup'. I finally determined my issue was the inherent lack of calcium and magnesium in my soft water. Also in my non-CO2 tanks the pH was preventing the uptake of the EDTA chelated iron in my CSM+B. Here is what I want you to do....change nothing - keep everything the same as you are doing now with this one exception! We are going to add some calcium, magnesium, iron, and potassium to your dosing routine using one product, Seachem Equilibrium for the next two months (normally less time but java ferns and Anubias sp. grow slowly). Seachem Equilibrium contains potassium sulfate, calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, ferric sulfate, manganese sulfate. It will not effect your pH / dKH but we will increase your dGH. For the Initial Dose please add add 4.5 tablespoons (13.5 teaspoons) to your 90 gallons of water. Dissolve it in some tank water in a jar or glass and pour it into the tank....it will turn the water 'milky' for several hours but it will clear. Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change, add two (2) teaspoons per 10 gallons of new water added to the tank. These doses should increase your dGH from 3.0 to 6.0 and will add but not effect your pH / dKH. It will increase your Ca by 17 ppm, your Mg by 5 ppm, your K by 41 ppm, and your usable iron by 0.23 ppm. Now the hardest part.....waiting. Maintain the Equilibrium dosing for two months and watch your java ferns closely. If we are correct within 2-4 weeks you should see signs of new root growth and 'buds" (where new leaves will emerge) on the rhizomes. Then the new leaves should start to sprout from the rhizome. Eventually the rhizome with start growing in length and start 'branching'. Lastly, using that much Seachem Equilibrium for long durations can become expensive (I know I have 180 gallons of planted tanks). Once we have seen the results of this 2 months trial - if the results are as expected - I will share how to do the same thing using the 'salts' that you can purchase from nilocg.com and save yourself some money. Hope this helps! -Roy Fig 1 EDTA Iron in CSM+B and availability based upon pH Fig 2 Calcium and root growth Nice, healthy java fern (Leptochilus pteropus previously Microsorum pteropus) 'Trident' variant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Cruiser Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 Thanks for the detailed analysis, Roy! I love the sciencey bits of our hobby... No CO2 currently or in near future. I'll give the Equilibrium a try for a couple months. Patience is something I'm good with...👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seattle_Aquarist Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 I think my patience starting going up with my age.....I have lots of patience now! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Cruiser Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 On 4/29/2024 at 4:48 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said: I think my patience starting going up with my age.....I have lots of patience now! lol Exactly. 😆 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Cruiser Posted May 4 Author Share Posted May 4 (edited) Starting to get some other plants in...more & driftwood coming soon. Stone caves are for new A. Macmasteri juveniles. New wood and plants will further delineate "territories". They've been playing nicely, so far. Dosed the initial Equilibrium shortly after this pic at lights out ( this is "sunset" lighting). Didn't get a pic of that, but just imagine a 100ga vanilla milkshake without the straw. Holy sandstorm, Batman! 😲 Edited May 4 by Beach Cruiser 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seattle_Aquarist Posted May 4 Share Posted May 4 lol @Beach Cruiser, yes it does look like a 'milkshake' but the majority clears but after an hour or so in my tanks it has mostly cleared and usually overnight it is back to normal. What type of stones are those? I always get concerned when I see 'white stones' in a tanks concerned it is some type of calcium based rock, like limestone,Seiryu Stone, or another derivative of calcium carbonate that will effect the Ca:Mg ratio or hardness in tanks. If I go out and find a stone or rock when hiking I always test it for calcium carbonate usually with white vinegar or sometime if I want to wear safety gear muriatic acid. If I choose to use Seiryu Stone in a tank, which I do from time to time, I make sure I don't skimp on my 50% water changes and monitor my pH, dKH, and dGH monthly to avoid excessive calcium buildup. -Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Cruiser Posted May 4 Author Share Posted May 4 (edited) On 5/4/2024 at 5:49 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said: lol @Beach CruiserWhat type of stones are those? They are actually a "pink" granite. Pretty much non-reactive to acetic acid, etc. There is sodium & potassium in the alkali feldspar, but it's relatively stable. Not much calcium at all. Edited May 4 by Beach Cruiser 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Cruiser Posted May 5 Author Share Posted May 5 Now the milkshake has passed, water tests at dGH = 6 (+3 over prior), dKH = 1.5/2 (same). Fish seem fine, nobody stressed. Most anubias already had new roots/leaves coming in, so it will be interesting to see what new leaves look like. Ferns will be more of a waiting game... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seattle_Aquarist Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) @Beach Cruiser, I know it is disconcerting when the water turns so white but it does clear, with good filtration fairly quickly. When you start seeing some improvement let us know, as you said without CO2 it may take a month or more. When you want to start your own DIY equivalent to Equilibrium let me know and I will walk you through it. -Roy Edited May 5 by Seattle_Aquarist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyxxl Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 On 5/4/2024 at 5:49 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said: lol @Beach Cruiser, yes it does look like a 'milkshake' but the majority clears but after an hour or so in my tanks it has mostly cleared and usually overnight it is back to normal. What type of stones are those? I always get concerned when I see 'white stones' in a tanks concerned it is some type of calcium based rock, like limestone,Seiryu Stone, or another derivative of calcium carbonate that will effect the Ca:Mg ratio or hardness in tanks. If I go out and find a stone or rock when hiking I always test it for calcium carbonate usually with white vinegar or sometime if I want to wear safety gear muriatic acid. If I choose to use Seiryu Stone in a tank, which I do from time to time, I make sure I don't skimp on my 50% water changes and monitor my pH, dKH, and dGH monthly to avoid excessive calcium buildup. -Roy I have soft water even with seriyu stone in my tank I was wondering about it changing my pH and the hardness of my water but it hasn't so far 3 months in the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seattle_Aquarist Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 On 5/6/2024 at 10:54 AM, johnnyxxl said: I have soft water even with seriyu stone in my tank I was wondering about it changing my pH and the hardness of my water but it hasn't so far 3 months in the tank. Hi @johnnyxxl, The rate that limestone will dissolve and add carbonates (pH/dKH) and calcium (dGH)to the water is directly proportional to the pH of the tank. If the pH is above 7.0 (neutral / alkaline) already the rate limestone (or any calcium carbonate mineral) will dissolve is slow. If the pH is below neutral (acidic) then the rate the limestone will dissolve and the increase in pH (dKH) and dGH will be much faster. The more acidic the faster calcium carbonate materials will dissolve. Calcium carbonate (shells, coral, limestone, etc.) have a natural pH of about pH@9.9 - so the closer the pH is in the tank is to 9.9 the slower the rate it dissolves and the slower the increase. If the tank were to reach a pH of 9.9 no calcium carbonate would dissolve. Hope this helps! -Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Cruiser Posted May 14 Author Share Posted May 14 10 day update: Wow! Didn't expect results this quickly. While my Anubias had been coming back nicely upon restarting the fert schedule, I've seen a noticeable uptick in root production! Plus every plant is producing new leaves nonstop. The BIG difference is in the ferns! Several new leaves & rhizome/bud growth on the long suffering established Windelov variety & buds on most of the new standard type. Hard to spot new root growth since they are all black. While not exactly speedsters, this is borderline explosive growth for ferns in my tank/water! The stem plants & swords seem unphased, but christmas moss growth has increased as well. Can't wait to see what they look like in 2 months! Huge thanks to @Seattle_Aquarist for his sage advice! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyxxl Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 On 5/14/2024 at 11:07 AM, Beach Cruiser said: 10 day update: Wow! Didn't expect results this quickly. While my Anubias had been coming back nicely upon restarting the fert schedule, I've seen a noticeable uptick in root production! Plus every plant is producing new leaves nonstop. The BIG difference is in the ferns! Several new leaves & rhizome/bud growth on the long suffering established Windelov variety & buds on most of the new standard type. Hard to spot new root growth since they are all black. While not exactly speedsters, this is borderline explosive growth for ferns in my tank/water! The stem plants & swords seem unphased, but christmas moss growth has increased as well. Can't wait to see what they look like in 2 months! Huge thanks to @Seattle_Aquarist for his sage advice! Good to hear. Can't wait to see pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Cruiser Posted May 14 Author Share Posted May 14 Difficult to photograph at the moment since they are still smallish & towards the back. I'll try next low tide (water change). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seattle_Aquarist Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 On 5/14/2024 at 8:07 AM, Beach Cruiser said: 10 day update: Wow! Didn't expect results this quickly. While my Anubias had been coming back nicely upon restarting the fert schedule, I've seen a noticeable uptick in root production! Plus every plant is producing new leaves nonstop. The BIG difference is in the ferns! Several new leaves & rhizome/bud growth on the long suffering established Windelov variety & buds on most of the new standard type. Hard to spot new root growth since they are all black. While not exactly speedsters, this is borderline explosive growth for ferns in my tank/water! The stem plants & swords seem unphased, but christmas moss growth has increased as well. Can't wait to see what they look like in 2 months! Huge thanks to @Seattle_Aquarist for his sage advice! Hi @Beach Cruiser, Glad to hear you are seeing positive results! I always appreciate getting feedback (both positive or negative) on the suggestions I make because it helps me increase my knowledge and others that read your thread. My experience has been that if a tank has had a month or two to "settle in" and plant growth is limited there is usually an issue that is the cause. Sometimes it is a nutrient (or more than one), sometimes it is light, and sometimes it is the water parameters. I would appreciate seeing pictures as well when you have an opportunity! -Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Cruiser Posted May 15 Author Share Posted May 15 On 5/15/2024 at 11:01 AM, Seattle_Aquarist said: Hi @Beach Cruiser, Glad to hear you are seeing positive results! I always appreciate getting feedback (both positive or negative) on the suggestions I make because it helps me increase my knowledge and others that read your thread. My experience has been that if a tank has had a month or two to "settle in" and plant growth is limited there is usually an issue that is the cause. Sometimes it is a nutrient (or more than one), sometimes it is light, and sometimes it is the water parameters. I would appreciate seeing pictures as well when you have an opportunity! -Roy @Seattle_Aquarist Apologies for the less than stellar photos: Most recent adds of std Java on big rock have new rhizome buds, both near & far. I'd consider these plants still in transition phase. Small pebble has baby Windelov doing nicely, also Long suffering Windelovs both have new leaves at both ends of rhizome. Still with translucent tips are they do when recent. Bigger leaves are at far ends. Took a bit less than suggested measure of Equilibrium to reach 6Gh this last water change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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