How to get my apistos to spawn where I can see it?

[jwcarlson]

I've been incredibly frustrated for over a year now with multiple failed spawns from my apistos.  I'm down to a single pair now (actually only ever had a single pair since of the four pairs I received 7 males and 1 female).  

I need to be able to see when they spawn.  I'll explain why.

I believe that I have figured out why they have not had a successful hatch and I wish I could say that I know exactly why, but I don't.  But here's what I do know.  As part of troubleshooting this issue, I bought a number of pairs of pitch black rams.  They've spawned multiple times and have never once had any eggs hatch.  Eggs look good, are clearly developing, and then eventually turn white.  The TDS of the tanks is under 90 and has been down to 15.  I know that TDS isn't a perfect indicator, but just leaving that here to say that it's quite soft water.  Nearly straight RO.  

I talked with a few discus breeders who also breed rams and a some of them cannot get eggs to hatch without pulling the eggs to straight RO shortly after they spawn.  They accomplish this by putting them in a pitcher or hang-on box.  Most of the time these people then artificially raise the fry.  I do not have a lot of interest in that route.  So, I have been re-introducing the fry once they start hatching and wiggling a bit.  I've pulled eggs three times now and they have hatched successfully all three times when moving to RO.  No successfully raised fry, as I think the parents kind of slowly pecked them up.  But this last batch as of this morning the parents have not eaten any of the fry in the few days they've had them and I think they're getting pretty close to going free-swimming.  They're starting to "hop" a bit in the dish and are constantly moving around on the dish surface.  But that's not the focus here, just showing that I think I've pinpointed the issue.  The people who I have talked to with this issue don't have a great idea of why it's this way for them (or for me), but it's clearly "water".

The issue I have with my apistos is they never spawn "obviously"... at least for me, but I think they do sometimes spawn because she'll disappear for a couple of days and then show back up.  I have a terracotta pot or two that I could place against the front or side of the tank so that I could see into it, but I feel like she would be hesitant to lay in there since it would be "open" on the big end.  I'd like to hatch them in RO and then move the babies back with the parents.  I have no idea if apistos will take to it like the rams seem to have.  But I think it's worth a shot.  The reason I want to spawn these fish is entirely to be able to observe the parental behavior.  I could play parent and raise them in a fry tray in my "Dean-Style Fry System", but I don't really have a desire to do that.

Has anyone done this?  Should I get some sort of a one-way film so she can't see out?  Am I overlooking something more obvious?  I'll clearly have to pull the other caves, but maybe if I can give them a couple options that I can see into I will be able to get a shot at spawning them.  I know Lowell's Fish Lab had a video where he captured his apistos spawning on camera, so maybe I can glean some information from that video.  

Thanks for your help in my quest to make Sushi the one-pectoral-finned wonder fish a successful mom.  The kids named her. 😄  The male is either Rice or Iorek, I can't recall which is which.

 

[Guppysnail]

Cut out a piece of black plastic craft sheet or aquarium background secure in place with masking or scotch tape.

Cover the large side where the pot is against the side glass. Once you suspect there are eggs you can peek.  

[jwcarlson]

On 4/4/2024 at 5:36 AM, Guppysnail said:

Cut out a piece of black plastic craft sheet or aquarium background secure in place with masking or scotch tape.

Cover the large side where the pot is against the side glass. Once you suspect there are eggs you can peek.  

That's about all I can think of.  I'd done it awhile back with some black static cling stuff.  But I didn't give it enough time.  And it was before I switched males.  This male she's with now has been extremely chill and doesn't seem like he's going to beat her up like the other one did as soon as I switched some caves around.

[tolstoy21]

On 4/3/2024 at 5:49 PM, jwcarlson said:

The issue I have with my apistos is they never spawn "obviously"... at least for me, but I think they do sometimes spawn because she'll disappear for a couple of days and then show back up. 

I have never pulled eggs, so i really don't have any advice there. But, I can say that I tend to watch the female for indicators that she has spawned.

As you mentioned, she will disappear. But her attitude towards the male will also change and she will begin to act defensive. This aggressiveness of this can vary from individual to individual, but all females will strike some 'defensive' posture to one extent or another, in my experience. So, knowing your couple's specific/typical behavior certainly helps. It also helps to check on them daily to see if they are engaged in any courtship displays. You won't always catch them in act, but when you do it gives you a heads up on when you might have fry coming.

I will also position the caves so I can shine a flashlight into the opening. My typical setup is to have the cave near the side of the aquarium, secluded under a flat piece of driftwood. I'll also position some small, potted java ferns around area to increase the female's sense of security. I keep the caves about 1/3 of the way away from the aquarium front, with the opening facing me. Usually, if there are fry in the cave I will see them.

Unless I know that a specific pair of fish has successfully raised fry without eating them, I will pull the adults instead of pulling the eggs. Having the parents raise them is the best route to go, but if I need to relocate some voracious child munchers, I will. Typically, I almost always relocate the male to reduce the stress that can often be put on him by the female.

Not the exact answer you're probably after, but what you're experiencing is pretty much what I experience in terms of spawning not always being obvious. The above is how I've adapted to that fact over the years.

Edited April 4 by tolstoy21

[jwcarlson]

Thanks, @tolstoy21!  My issue is that the eggs simply won't hatch.  I don't know what demon lives in my water even with nearly pure RO in the spawning tanks... but it just doesn't work.  I'm curious as to if I'll be able to reintroduce wigglers to apisto parents.

I've tried to avoid shining a light in the caves, but at this point what's the difference if I scare her into eating them or they don't hatch anyway?  

The male always seems flirty and I have watched them spawn once for sure.  The truth is that I do not observe my fish as much as I might like to.  The apistos in particular I had just given up on and figured I would let them live out their days or had considered rehoming them.  But now that I've seen moving eggs to RO work with rams I think I want to give the apistos a bit yet.

[tolstoy21]

On 4/4/2024 at 9:38 AM, jwcarlson said:

Thanks, @tolstoy21!  My issue is that the eggs simply won't hatch.  I don't know what demon lives in my water even with nearly pure RO in the spawning tanks... but it just doesn't work. 

The male could just be a dud and not fertilizing the eggs well. If the male won't fit into the apisto cave (if you're using a cave), I believe the male will release outside the entrance and try to wave his 'purity of essence' (Dr Strangelove reference there, for no particular reason) into the cave using his tail.

If you're running re-mineralized RO water, and you know your params are good and within a reason, then it's probably not water. 

On 4/4/2024 at 9:38 AM, jwcarlson said:

I've tried to avoid shining a light in the caves, but at this point what's the difference if I scare her into eating them or they don't hatch anyway?  

I use a flashlight that has a dim setting on it so Im not throwing a floodlight into her cave. I don't always use a flashlight, but if a pair has been tricky to breed, I will resort to that to try to get an indication of if anything is going on.

[jwcarlson]

I've used caves he can and cannot fit in.  And two different males.  And when I actively watched them spawn it was in a hole in the driftwood and he was able to get in there for sure.  

 

Re: water, I've run it down to 15 TDS for both the rams and the apistos and I just talked to someone yesterday that says his spawn and hatch in his tap water at 200 TDS.  I know TDS isn't a great measure, but simply stating that there's not 'much' left in the water I'm using.  For awhile I was changing straight RO only into the apistos just to try to get a baseline from which to start.  But that's still in the main tank and all of the possible pathogens that could be causing an issue.  I do not screw around with pH, but the RO mixes usually are in the 7.4 range.  The other breeders I've talked to suggested straight RO because they've experienced similar issues and were unable to resolve them outside of that.  I had ~10 failed ram spawns and every single one that I have moved to straight RO has hatched just fine.  It's something that happens fairly close to hatch because the eggs look good for a few days and then suddenly fungus over.  This has happened in tanks with bare bottoms, tanks with sand/plants, etc.  I don't know if it's just me moving it to the more sterile environment that does it or what.  I do bleach my hang-on containers and use fresh RO so it doesn't really touch any tank or anything except for whatever transfers over when I pull the eggs.

I'd LOVE to figure out the actual issue, but I feel like it's beyond me.  Three of the people who have this same issue have been breeding discus and rams for 20-30+ years each and this is all that they've found that works.

When it comes down to it, I'm really just interested in successfully raising some fry.  I'm not planning to start an apisto farm.  Perhaps most interested just to prove that I haven't been "doing it wrong" for the last year and a half or however long it has been.

Edited April 4 by jwcarlson

[tolstoy21]

On 4/4/2024 at 9:57 AM, jwcarlson said:

I do not screw around with pH, but the RO mixes usually are in the 7.4 range.

You might want to try keeping your Kh near or at zero to get the Ph below 7. When I mix water for apisto spawning (those that wont spawn in my tapwater), I use Seachem's American Cichlid Salt. 

Straight RO water theoretically has no Ph, so when measured it will appear to have a Ph of 7 (exactly neutral) until acted upon by something that moves the dial towards acidic or alkaline. An easy way to get the Ph lower somewhat naturally is to remineralize the RO water with something that adds no Kh or buffer. This can be supplemented with the introduction of tannins form leaves or blackwater extract.

[jwcarlson]

On 4/4/2024 at 10:56 AM, tolstoy21 said:

You might want to try keeping your Kh near or at zero to get the Ph below 7. When I mix water for apisto spawning (those that wont spawn in my tapwater), I use Seachem's American Cichlid Salt. 

Straight RO water theoretically has no Ph, so when measured it will appear to have a Ph of 7 (exactly neutral) until acted upon by something that moves the dial towards acidic or alkaline. An easy way to get the Ph lower somewhat naturally is to remineralize the RO water with something that adds no Kh or buffer. This can be supplemented with the introduction of tannins form leaves or blackwater extract.

To be honest, I'm not sure that I ever took pH readings when I was using straight RO in the tanks.  If I recall, the KH in my apisto tanks was either 1 or 2 degrees and I really struggle to understand how that little of KH could such a big affect, but I'll confess to being ignorant in these regards.  I suppose there's probably some little residual KH after my RO unit, but would A. hongsloi have an issue with that?  Additionally... the ram eggs hatch just fine in "0" TDS RO water, but do not hatch in 15 TDS mostly RO water in the tank. 

Rhetorical question as I don't expect you to know, but just thinking.  I've heard that they're pretty tolerant for spawning, not as tolerant as cacatoidies (or however it's spelled).  Maybe I eventually get a pair of those and see if they'll spawn successfully.  

I think I need to capture a set of eggs from them and get them in RO.  That at least gives me a good apisto datapoint.  This was one of the big reasons I wanted rams because I'd be able to know exactly when the spawned and troubleshoot from there.  I have a really difficult time knowing when my hongsloi spawn.  I know they've done it plenty of times, but I only "know know" that they've spawned like 3-4 times.

[jwcarlson]

I realize that I've left out some important information, possibly.  And that is that I put methylene blue in with the straight RO water when I pull the eggs.

It certainly seems like it is fungus that gets the eggs after a few days.  But it happens seemingly "instantly", they'll look absolutely fine with just a couple white infertile ones that are white very early on.  And then they'll all be covered seemingly overnight.

[jwcarlson]

I left the algae on for camouflage.  🤥

Took out a couple of caves and rearranged a bit during water change today.  She doesn't seem to hate it.  I need to borrow my dad's tile saw and cut some of these pots in half.  Burying a whole pot in the sand far enough is kind of a pain.

[tolstoy21]

On 4/4/2024 at 12:22 PM, jwcarlson said:

To be honest, I'm not sure that I ever took pH readings when I was using straight RO in the tanks

I'd not bother taking a Ph reading of RO water, as it the result will have no real meaning if the TDS is the resulting water is truly zero. Any buffers or acidifiers will have a pretty fast effect on RODI water. 

I don't have any experience with Hongsoi, but most of the apistos I've bred have been in a TDS of between 30 - 150. The only apoistogramma I have bred in close to zero TDS is Abacaxis, with require a Ph around 4.5 to spawn.

I typically focus more on the Ph than TDS when I breed. However, some species do appreciate mineral-poor water when breeding, but that's more a factor of Gh than Kh (I think; I could be wrong).  For these fish I'll make RODI water and mix in some of the Seachem American Cichlid Salt to get an approximate TSD (usually between 30 - 100 for most species I keep).  I don't have a target TDS in mind, just something substantially lower than my well water (TDS 300). The moment I see fry in the aquarium, I turn my water change system back on for that aquarium, and raise them the fry in my well water, not RODI water.

I had the same problem you are currently having with Zebra Acara, but never got down to the root cause of the issue. I was going to run a UV steralizer in their aquarium, as I've seen people suggest for that species, but my female passed away before I got a chance to try.

Wished I could be more helpful.

[jwcarlson]

On 4/8/2024 at 8:58 AM, tolstoy21 said:

I was going to run a UV steralizer in their aquarium, as I've seen people suggest for that species, but my female passed away before I got a chance to try.

Wished I could be more helpful.

Interesting regarding the UV sterilizer.  I hadn't thought of that.  I run them in my discus tank and initial fry tank, but not in any of the breeding setups.  That's as good of a solution as anything else I've considered.

You've been plenty of help!  I don't necessarily expect a solution, but a quiver of arrows to fire.

Edited April 8 by jwcarlson