My Troubles With Amano Shrimp

[Supermassive]

On 3/14/2024 at 10:52 AM, RichNJ said:

So maybe nitrates potentially is a factor more than the water softener (since the shrimp once survived in water softener treated water parameters?!?!?

I would do the 50/50 test and see what it says.

[RichNJ]

On 3/14/2024 at 10:58 AM, Supermassive said:

I would do the 50/50 test and see what it says.

So i did the 50/50 test, and show two pictures here of the same test with different angles.  I then show a Coop test strip result.  I am thinking the tank is 60.  The drop test looks in between 20 and 40, so call it 30 and double it to 60.  For the Coop strip, it's seems like it's around 50, but good easily be 60 too.  I actually am finding it easier to assess color by zooming in with my phone.  Maybe just bad old eyes now.  Anyway, you think 60?  And maybe that is a culprit for me with my bad luck with Amanos.  Rather than this water softener and salt debate from above?

@Supermassive @nabokovfan87

[KaitieG]

I've successfully kept amano and cherry shrimp in my super hard water that runs 1/2 through a softener.  1/2 because the hot water, like yours, is all softened to try to avoid ruining our water heater.  We don't soften the cold water that goes to our kitchen sink, and I usually fill from there.  That said, I didn't ever add EXTRA salt, so can't speak to that one.  Just that I haven't had an issue with the partially softened water thing.  I did have trouble getting shrimp started a couple of times.  Had the best luck when I found a local hobbyist on Craigslist.  

Did learn that you cannot put an angelfish with them if you want ANY to survive for more than 1 day...with moss, a shrimp cave, wood, rocks, all the hiding places.  Angelfish was a lot deadlier than the water softener. 😒

[Supermassive]

On 3/14/2024 at 2:08 PM, RichNJ said:

So i did the 50/50 test, and show two pictures here of the same test with different angles.  I then show a Coop test strip result.  I am thinking the tank is 60.  The drop test looks in between 20 and 40, so call it 30 and double it to 60.  For the Coop strip, it's seems like it's around 50, but good easily be 60 too.  I actually am finding it easier to assess color by zooming in with my phone.  Maybe just bad old eyes now.  Anyway, you think 60?  And maybe that is a culprit for me with my bad luck with Amanos.  Rather than this water softener and salt debate from above?

Looking at the pictures I would say its 60-80ppm. I don't think amanos can tolerate that high of nitrate levels. Do you know if your nitrates were that high in all the tanks you put them in?

[RichNJ]

On 3/14/2024 at 6:31 PM, Supermassive said:

Looking at the pictures I would say it’s 60-80ppm. I don't think amanos can tolerate that high of nitrate levels. Do you know if your nitrates were that high in all the tanks you put them in?

@Supermassive

I think in the 20L where they died right away, yeah that tank was running high, and since is lower to this level.  Trying to get it lower. 
 

For the other tank I put the rest of the shrimp, a 9 gallon Fluval Flex with African dwarf frogs, they weren’t as high as my 20L but probably in the 40ish area.  They lived longer in the frog tank but died right away in the 20L.

so it feels the variable here is nitrates and I need to keep growing out plants, control livestock, and step up water changes. 
 

Edited March 14 by RichNJ

[Supermassive]

On 3/14/2024 at 6:42 PM, RichNJ said:

so it feels the variable here is nitrates and I need to keep growing out plants, control livestock, and step up water changes

I agree, nitrates seem likely at this point. Yes, more plants and water changes.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/14/2024 at 5:41 AM, RichNJ said:

So a few variables I think maybe we can work with, which I want to prioritize or eliminate:

1) Bypass the water softener and water change the old softened water out over time?  I'd have to think about temp here since my tap is cold.  I could prep a bucket at night and let it sit to room temp into the 60s.

2) Stop adding salt altogether (whether I bypass the softener or not).  I only add 2 teaspoons of Fritz per 5g bucket during my water change schedule.

3) Stop the iron? I think not a factor one way or the other

4) increase water change frequency to get nitrates down more.  I feel that Amanos should be able to handle 30-40 though.  The fish are fine and are flying around, and breeding.  I actually removed my floating Anacharis plant since they gave too many hiding spots for guppy fry to survive.  I'd rather the population stop here, and I want to shift to platies mostly (a favorite) and let the guppies age out.  I removed some guppies and put in my bigger 55g tank (that tank is another story and eventual project to improve).  First up is my 20L here...easier to toy with since smaller.

1 -  Yeah, fish only you would opt for no softener or softener --> RODI setup.  The softener is supposed to extend the life of the RODI unit, but I wouldn't be the right person to verify that.  Basically... fish only, as long as fish fit the range of the tap (which you can test once you have access to pull just tap water and run an off-gas test) then you would be able to determine how much water you can change, how quickly, etc. Shrimp or snails in the tank, you'll want to take a much slower approach like you mentioned, absolutely.

2 - yes, I wouldn't be adding salt to any freshwater tank unless you're doing treatment.  I understand the use for brackish, which is what Zenzo (Tazawa Tanks) has shown on his channel with his amano shrimp.  Generally speaking, different lines of amano shrimp will have varying levels of salt tolerance and there are some studies out there on this.  My tanks have no salt in them, but they handle salt during treatment at any dose up to 1 tbsp per gallon.

3 - No, using iron is fine.

4.  One big water change up front is a great idea, ~90% if you can to try to really, seriously reduce those nitrate levels.  Secondarily, take a water sample and dilute it by 50% and re-test to verify the number you're seeing on the liquid test.  Being a 20L tank, hopefully we can get this thing sorted pretty quickly!

[RichNJ]

On 3/14/2024 at 8:59 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

1 -  Yeah, fish only you would opt for no softener or softener --> RODI setup.  The softener is supposed to extend the life of the RODI unit, but I wouldn't be the right person to verify that.  Basically... fish only, as long as fish fit the range of the tap (which you can test once you have access to pull just tap water and run an off-gas test) then you would be able to determine how much water you can change, how quickly, etc. Shrimp or snails in the tank, you'll want to take a much slower approach like you mentioned, absolutely.

2 - yes, I wouldn't be adding salt to any freshwater tank unless you're doing treatment.  I understand the use for brackish, which is what Zenzo (Tazawa Tanks) has shown on his channel with his amano shrimp.  Generally speaking, different lines of amano shrimp will have varying levels of salt tolerance and there are some studies out there on this.  My tanks have no salt in them, but they handle salt during treatment at any dose up to 1 tbsp per gallon.

3 - No, using iron is fine.

4.  One big water change up front is a great idea, ~90% if you can to try to really, seriously reduce those nitrate levels.  Secondarily, take a water sample and dilute it by 50% and re-test to verify the number you're seeing on the liquid test.  Being a 20L tank, hopefully we can get this thing sorted pretty quickly!

thanks, I think I have a plan now.  Certainly step up water changes, that one is easy and straightforward (well actually all the steps of my plan are kind of easy).  I'll back off of salt for now and only use it for treatment.  As for a RODI setup, I've been thinking about it logistically in the house and the cost.  I'd probably want to get a storage tank and would need a pump to a staging bin, rather than carrying up from a basement.

First things first, water changes and salt reduction.  

Funny, I was convinced that my nitrates were now 30 in this tank, but i think that was not consistent and was right after a water change (duh, should have realized that).  I think based on my above 50/50 test, that its back in the 60-80 area.

As for the bypass, well I think my 20L with liverbearers can take the 22gh just fine.  I am debating though if I should do it for my 55g tetra tanks, although not all tetras (Congos/lemons/cardinatls/white skirts/one angelfish/harlequin razboras/cories).   I think the 22gh might push those guys.  I have it at 6gh with post-softener water.  8ph though since no CO2 in this tank, for now at least.  Anyway, will look into the RODI as i said.

Appreciate the insight and troubleshooting.

 

@nabokovfan87 @Supermassive

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/15/2024 at 5:21 AM, RichNJ said:

As for a RODI setup, I've been thinking about it logistically in the house and the cost.  I'd probably want to get a storage tank and would need a pump to a staging bin, rather than carrying up from a basement.

1000%  If you ever go down the RODI list there's a ton of shrimp or saltwater channels that have mixing station setups.  Marks Shrimp Tanks has a lot of videos on how to prep water and saltwater aquariums has the "newbie reefer" series which is helpful, easy, and a bit of fun.

On 3/15/2024 at 5:21 AM, RichNJ said:

First things first, water changes and salt reduction.  

Funny, I was convinced that my nitrates were now 30 in this tank, but i think that was not consistent and was right after a water change (duh, should have realized that).  I think based on my above 50/50 test, that its back in the 60-80 area.

Sidenote, it may be true that salt can throw off test results as this is a freshwater kit. 

Edited March 15 by nabokovfan87

[RichNJ]

@nabokovfan87 @Supermassive

Update to this thread.....so overtime with water changes and more plant growth in my 20L i have Nitrates down to 40 (confirmed with an API test using 25%/75% tank/tap combo at about 10ppm, so therefore its 40).  That's an improvement from the 60-80+ we were seeing about 6 weeks ago.

My quarantine tank with floating plants became available so I just bought 8 medium size Amanos from my LFS.  This QT has only 20ppm nitrates and is well cycled and established. There are also 3 old guppies, 1 old lemon tetra and 2 mystery snails in here as well.  This will be my test.  The tank has established algae and I will supplement feed too.  If the Amanos do well here for a month or so, I will test them in the 20L (providing I have nitrates there 40 or less).  This will confirm that my issue was nitrates all a long.  If they don't do well in the QT, that it's my tap water and/or water softener combo and RODI would be needed for shrimp.

Will report back when I know more.

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/27/2024 at 11:50 AM, RichNJ said:

Will report back when I know more.

Great work.  Keep at it.  It's a battle sometimes and just know that clean water in is the best we can do sometimes.