Stability and cycling.

[Gideyon]

I'm not new to a fishless cycle. But I'm trying something new ... I've been dosing my tank with Stability and after a week I'm still not getting any nitrites while the ammonia is still high. 

Does this mean Stability doesn't help or I have a faulty bottle?  I've seen people start getting nitrites after just a day of Stability, hence my effort to speed things up. 

Anyone with experience in this? 

[Tony s]

nitrite cycles about a week behind ammonia. nitrates begin to cycle about a week after that. different strains of bacteria. so, you're right on track

now it is possible to get a faulty bottle of bacteria. I had one shipped and somewhere along the line it has to have gotten frozen, it never did work.

to be honest, mine was a bottle of fritz7, shipped by amazon

Edited March 7 by Tony s

[Galabar]

Bottled bacteria will probably help, but it might shorten the cycle from 40 days to 30 days (who knows).  Filter media from other tanks seems to work much better (if you've got it).

 

[Gideyon]

After two weeks and no nitrites, I did a 95% water change. Put some tissue cultures in.   Didn't dose with ammonia yet. 

Am I getting impatient or does it seem normal?   Before I got nitrites with no external accelerators in less than 2 weeks. 

I ordered some quick start. Maybe I'll have better luck with that. 

[TMartins]

The only product that I was able to notice a significant difference was Fritz Zyme 7.  Stability did nothing with my experience.

[jwcarlson]

I've fish-in cycled almost everything with daily water changes and stability.  It's so much easier than the mostly silly fishless cycles that still seem to need to cycle at least somewhat after fish are added.  Takes out all the guess work and you don't need to worry about testing water all the time.  Do a check after a week and see where you're at.  If it's promising, wait a day and recheck... if bad - change water.  If good - wait another day and check again.  

One of the most perplexing moves in the hobby is the move away from doing any/all water changes.  I understand not wasting water, but for a temporary period of time doing changes frequently isn't a big deal.

Edited March 14 by jwcarlson

[Gideyon]

On 3/14/2024 at 1:46 PM, jwcarlson said:

I've fish-in cycled almost everything with daily water changes and stability.  It's so much easier than the mostly silly fishless cycles that still seem to need to cycle at least somewhat after fish are added.  Takes out all the guess work and you don't need to worry about testing water all the time.  Do a check after a week and see where you're at.  If it's promising, wait a day and recheck... if bad - change water.  If good - wait another day and check again.  

One of the most perplexing moves in the hobby is the move away from doing any/all water changes.  I understand not wasting water, but for a temporary period of time doing changes frequently isn't a big deal.

I did fish-in with my 10g and one betta. But because it's a 5 gallon, I'm not too comfortable. I also don't have the time for daily water changes. 

But if these plants take root, maybe that'll help if I go fish-in. 

[Galabar]

I find the fishless cycle to be much easier with much less effort needed (and less stress).  Why bother putting your fish at risk if you can just add ammonia and wait?

Now, if you really want to add those fish and you can't control yourself, that's fine.  Just make sure you keep up with water changes.  Having lots of plants is also very helpful.

 

Edited March 15 by Galabar

[Tony s]

All the above are very valid ways to do a cycle. And you could add in ghost feed as well. I think it’s personal choice on this. Seeding the tank with old media and adding some bacteria seem to get the fastest results. There are even people who claim seeding and adding fritz7 with prime gets an instant cycle. Not sure I’d buy that. But then it just converts to fish in. Which works as well as long as it’s monitored closely.

[jwcarlson]

On 3/14/2024 at 9:28 PM, Galabar said:

I find the fishless cycle to be much easier with much less effort needed (and less stress).  Why bother putting your fish at risk if you can just add ammonia and wait?

I just don't think (for new fishkeepers) that it's setting them up for success.  Most problems seem to be cycling for new keepers and it sure feels like the majority of the time it's someone who has fishless cycled or thought they did I'm not sure what's more stressful.  I wish it was more common for people to suggest that they go beg, borrow, or steal a cycled sponge from a LFS or a local hobbyist.  Squeeze that baby in and *bam*.  Is any established hobbyist fishless cycling for new tanks?  I've always got extra media or sponges to move to a new setup.

The bottom line is that they both work if they're done right.  But a new fishkeeper doesn't have a great shot at doing it right the first time without a knowledgebase that even more experienced people don't have.  Put fish in, 50% water change every day, test it in two or three weeks... it doesn't get easier.  You can change 50% of water on a 10 gallon tank in... two or three minutes with the right siphon and a bucket.

 

[Galabar]

I would agree that the best way to go is to use cycled filter media.  Does ACO sell cycled sponge filters?

On 3/14/2024 at 8:00 PM, jwcarlson said:

...  Put fish in, 50% water change every day, test it in two or three weeks... it doesn't get easier.  ...

 

It definitely gets easier: don't put fish in and don't do any water changes... 🙂

[jwcarlson]

On 3/14/2024 at 9:57 PM, Tony s said:

But then it just converts to fish in. Which works as well as long as it’s monitored closely.

It doesn't even need to be monitored closely.  If you change enough water all the bad stuff never has a chance to build up.  You don't even ever need to test, truthfully.  I've found that after two weeks it's usually well on its way and you can start going every-other-day changes.  But if you just did them for a month it's usually cycled by then also so you can almost just... not test.  I just do more changes than normal on a newer tank and it works itself out.  This might not hold if you toss 50 fish in a 10 gallon.  But for most sane stocking it works fine.

It does get cumbersome with bigger tanks for sure.  But I did it with my 125 recently and it worked just fine with about 30% every day to every other day with one bigger one on the weekends.  ~30 juvy sterbai, 2 adult bristlenose, and 3 adult rams so not a massive bioload.  

[Galabar]

One thing I would say is that most new fish keepers will do a fish in cycle.  They'll buy the equipment and the fish near or at the same time.

Given that, we should have a good "story" for them on how to handle things.  I think just daily water changes without testing is probably something that most folks can stick to.  Also, telling them to feed lightly would probably be very helpful (and maybe to stick some plants in there).

However, I'm wondering what percentage of water would be a good suggestion?  Basically, you'd be looking for something that isn't too much, but would be significant enough to lower the expected ammonia.

[jwcarlson]

On 3/14/2024 at 10:04 PM, Galabar said:

I would agree that the best way to go is to use cycled filter media.  Does ACO sell cycled sponge filters?

It definitely gets easier: don't put fish in and don't do any water changes... 🙂

I don't think ACO does, they're too high profile it would probably be impossible to keep up.  There used to be mail-order places where you could buy a cycled sponge filter, but I don't think they exist anymore.  I've been on forums where seasoned hobbyists will ship seeded sponges to people, but with the cost of shipping anything anymore that's less prevalent than it was many years ago.

I don't know why everyone is so allergic to changing water.  3 weeks of daily water changes for a new fish keeper is good practice and they can learn how to do things efficiently.  I'm glad the hobby has moved beyond the mindset that you should buy fish to basically die in your tank to get your cycle going.  But I'm a little disappointed that everything is moving towards "I don't ever want to change water!"  I'm not saying that's what you're saying, Galabar, but I can assure you that's what new hobbyists hear.  I also think the idea that you just sit and wait and the cycle works is a bit oversimplifying things.  How many people have stalled their cycle with toxic levels of nitrites that never go down because they're inhibiting those bacteria?  Or people with pH that makes it so their tank basically can't "cycle" in the traditional way most people's water does?

I'm somewhat of a chronic hobbyer and honey bee keeping for the last 10 years has really opened my eyes to how incorrectly most new people to a hobby take the advice they have.  And that's not to say anything about the rampant bad information available on the internet.  Couple that with new people's desire to tinker with things that they're doing and I have always gone towards the side of giving people more things to do with what they're doing, but focusing it on constructive things.  But I'm side tracking.  There's many ways to tackle the issue of cycling an aquarium, my way is obviously right, but I suppose some other people eventually get their tanks going too.  🤣

On 3/14/2024 at 10:15 PM, Galabar said:

One thing I would say is that most new fish keepers will do a fish in cycle.  They'll buy the equipment and the fish near or at the same time.

Given that, we should have a good "story" for them on how to handle things.  I think just daily water changes without testing is probably something that most folks can stick to.  Also, telling them to feed lightly would probably be very helpful (and maybe to stick some plants in there).

However, I'm wondering what percentage of water would be a good suggestion?  Basically, you'd be looking for something that isn't too much, but would be significant enough to lower the expected ammonia.

Depends on tank size.  10 gallon tank 50% is great because who doesn't have a 5 gallon bucket?  But 50% every day for someone starting with a 75 might be a lot to ask because they're unlikely to have a big water change setup like some of us do.  But maybe 10 gallons a day in a 75 that's got maybe 25% of the final stocking in it.

 

And yes, plants are great.  I also use Stability and Prime with every water change so you get that "detoxifying" from Prime and seed some bacteria with Stability.  But I don't always use Stability.  It's gotten really expensive too.  I wanted to keep snails out of my 125 so I fish-in cycled it and bought a bottle of Stability, but it might be my last because it was like $35 for a medium sized bottle!

[Tony s]

On 3/14/2024 at 11:15 PM, jwcarlson said:

There used to be mail-order places where you could buy a cycled sponge filter, but I don't think they exist anymore.

I believe the issue with that was lack of oxygen and dead bacteria on arrival. 

 

On 3/14/2024 at 11:15 PM, jwcarlson said:

3 weeks of daily water changes for a new fish keeper is good practice and they can learn how to do things efficiently

Ha, yeah, after 12-14 hour work days I can’t. And I’m not sure most people have enough work ethic to actually get that done. That seems to be one of our biggest challenges. Especially finding young people who want to work. Even extra pay doesn’t solve that problem. That’s why I’m mostly good teaching fishless. It gets done without dead fish. And try to get them testing daily just to get them used to testing. Only way I know to solve problems. 

[Pepere]

I never saw any bacteria in a bottle product give any results that convinced me the purchase price was worthwhile.

 

i tried multiple bottles of multiple products.

 

I have spent my last dollar on such products.

[johnnyxxl]

Daily 50 percentage water change on my tank would be killer.  40 gallon changes