Ammonia Toxicity question

[Mercfh]

So obviously Ammonia and Nitrite is toxic. But when adding new fish a lot of aquariums go through a mini-cycle where the ammonia/nitrite rises.

I wonder...how long exactly can fish tolerate 1ppm ammonia/nitrite before it's really harmful? I mean I know zero is ideal but im curious.

Also side question. I know Prime is supposed to detoxify ammonia (1 "part" per 1ppm of either ammonia/nitrite) but I don't see that anywhere on their website. How is that calculated? (IE: 1 dose = 1ppm of ammonia/nitrite)

[Tony s]

Yeah, I’m guessing from a liability perspective, they’re not going to say that part out loud. I’m sure they have an idea, but they just give you the per tank recipe. They do say that 2ppm is when you could use the 5x dose. I found it interesting that while they can prove it detoxifies nitrates and nitrites, that was a side effect. And they’re not exactly sure how. I’ve screwed up my cycle numerous times, and I’m very convinced it does actually work.

[nabokovfan87]

There are studies on this and it's something studies for things like fish farms.  Salmon farms and fish farms in natural regions using fish pens are excreting a lot of ammonia and that changes the biology around those pens drastically.  There are documentaries and research studies on this phenomenon.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3059970/

I don't recommend going above 0.25 if you can help it.  Keep things below 0.5 is best.  There is a technique for handling ammonia in your tank, but let's just cut to the chase and say that I have seen gill plate damage, red gills happen very quickly, minutes. when ammonia spikes very high.

[Pepere]

On 2/3/2024 at 11:37 PM, Mercfh said:

So obviously Ammonia and Nitrite is toxic. But when adding new fish a lot of aquariums go through a mini-cycle where the ammonia/nitrite rises.

I wonder...how long exactly can fish tolerate 1ppm ammonia/nitrite before it's really harmful? I mean I know zero is ideal but im curious

It is best to stock fish in stages.  Ie add 6 fish or so  and give the tank around 4-6 weeks to adjust to new bioload before adding more fish….   Your beneficial bacteria grows to the available ammonia load in tank.  Add more fish, hence more ammonia and it takes time for beneficial bacteria colony to grow.

I really do not worry about 1 ppm ammonia by itself.  My tap water chronically has 1 ppm ammonia in it S a function of where I am located in the distribution system.  Municipalities do not inject chloramines to water, rather they inject chlorine and ammonia to water and they combine to form chloramines in the pipes.  After a water change I have detectable ammonia for about 8 hours before the tank metabolizes it.

Remember it is free amonia that is toxic to fish not total ammonia.  In water some of the total ammonia will be free ammonia and some will be ammonium. The ratio is dependent on temperature and ph.

 

 

My tank water is 24 c and the ph is around 7.2.  As such it would take a total ammonia of 2.41 for the free ammonia to rise to 0.02 ppm that poses a problem.

On 2/3/2024 at 11:37 PM, Mercfh said:

Also side question. I know Prime is supposed to detoxify ammonia (1 "part" per 1ppm of either ammonia/nitrite) but I don't see that anywhere on their website. How is that calculated? (IE: 1 dose = 1ppm of ammonia/nitrite)

Yeah. This is the reason I never use dechlorinator to “detoxify” ammonia.  Nobody knows, nobody will say. There is no available testing to verify.  Unlike just about every other item we dose in our tank, there is no dosing recommendation other than the vague “ up to 5 times normal dosing every 24 hours.  No information as to how many ppm of ammonia that dosing will “detoxify” No information as to how many ppm of free ammonia a 5 times dosing will “detoxify”…  I have asked people at what ppm of ammonia they will not solely rely on Dechlorinators to “detoxify” the ammonia and at what point they will do a water change to lower the level, and I dont think I ever got an answer.  If you have ammonia free water, I would suggest a 50% water change if the tank gets to 1 ppm. This lowers it to 0.5 ppm.  Presumably you will use dechlorinator with that water change and you will dose to the gallonage of the tank.  If the Dechlorinator really does “detoxify” ammonia, great, it will help with the remaining.  
 

Where my tap water has 1 ppm ammonia, if I have a tank where the cycle has been thrown off kilter due to meds etc, I cant do a tap water exchange to drop 1 ppm ammonia, so, I will do a water change from another cycled tank..  ie, I drain water from the problem tank, and then get replacement water from a well cycled tank, and then top off with tap water to the cycled tank…

I am not stating dechlorinators such as Prime and Fritz do not have any facility in detoxifying ammonia or nitrite, I am simply stating I would never simply dose the water with dechlorinator without lowering the levels with a water change as well.   If other people have more confidence in the “detoxifying” abilities of dechlorinators, I would be interested to know  how high a total ammonia ppm and at what temperature and ph they are comfortable relying solely on dosing dechlorinator to “detoxify” the ammonia.  
 

The reason I place “detoxify” in quotations is that we have no idea what the supposed “detoxified” compound is.  We know it is not converted from free ammonia to ammonium, because it is possible to test for free ammonia and tests have been done after dosing with dechlorinator and does not show a shift.   Personally I prefer to trust processes that can be measured and replicated, and water changes fit that category.

[face]

As already mentioned the toxicity of ammonia is based off the ph of the water lower ph the less toxic it should be noted that nitrite is the opposite lower ph make it more toxic but salt can neutralize in fact in salt water it’s non toxic a very small amount of salt is enough to completely negate nitrite poisoning so in all how long a fish would survive is impossible to determine in most cases 

As for detoxifying it who knows it’s completely possible to turn ammonia into some other chemical but is that chemical good for aquatic life who knows that no one on forums I can tell you that lol but I will say prime states that it detoxifys nitrates that’s impossible I’m happy to say that lol it’s already pretty much none reactive anyway this has been talked about for decades now no body knows 

[Tony s]

I’m hoping anyone testing for ammonia has enough sense that a water change is the very first step to address the issue. The larger the spike, the bigger the water change. I might use it temporarily to reduce it further after a crash. Until the next change. The only way I can see relying on the prime for ammonia is when you’re in the middle of a round of medication. 
 

what usually happens, I’m guessing, is when newer tank keepers have a incomplete cycle. They worry about changing their water and throwing off their cycle. Not realizing that the bb does not inhabit the water column and changing the water won’t hurt the cycle. You also still have shops that are advocates of doing fish in cycles instead of fishless cycles. And using prime to assist 

personally, I have no need for a dechorinator, as I use RO water from a well. But I have heard bad stories from people who didn’t use it and their city spiked the chlorine levels on them. It might just be one of those things that you’d rather be safe than sorry. If you lose your pet for not using it. How horrible is that.

if I lose one of the large animals we have from a missing vaccine, it costs me money. If I lose a dog that didn’t get a vaccine, it hits in a whole different way. 

Edited February 4 by Tony s