Apistogramma Ich - Day 4 of treatment no signs of improvement

[SupersoNick95]

Tank is well-established and has been running for 8 months. 0ppm ammonia or nitrites and has a decent plant load. Nitrates never seem to go past 20ppm.

Last Saturday, (1-13-2024) I noticed my Apistogramma flashing against the wood in my tank and then twitching right after several times throughout the day and it continued into Sunday. I suspected it may have been gill flukes but I did not see any inflammation in the gills or heavy breathing. The fish have not exhibited any other signs of stress and the rummy nose are actually nicely colored up.

Sunday I also noticed my corys and rummynose tetras begin flashing as well, many times per day. I then noticed a white spot akin to Ich on a fin of one of the tetras. In an abundance of caution, I began treating for ich. Dosed for my water volume and upped the temp to 82 over the course of a day and added an air stone to increase surface agitation. I have done 25% water changes every day before dosing again as directed by the Ich-X bottle. The cory and tetras stopped flashing after day 2 and the white spot on the tetra was gone. I am still continuing treatment. 

It is now day 4. Apisto is still flashing a lot, and today has begun acting very sluggish, dwelling at the top of my tank breathing heavily. The tetras remain active and are not showing signs of low oxygen or distress. Neither are the corys. I also do not see any increase in white spots on any fish. 

EDIT: I did notice a white spot by the apsito's eye/gils on the side he scratches most often.

I have several concerns/questions:

1. Could it be that the apisto is still dealing with the attached stage of the ich parasite? I know that ich can infect the gils. I know I am only about halfway through treatment. I have read that ich gets worse before it gets better. 
2. Could he finally have had enough of the higher temps after several days? I normally have this tank unheated and it remains at 76-78 degrees. I live in Florida so I usually never use a heater. He didn't show signs of stress during the first 2 days of high temps and meds. 
3. Are the meds just stressful for some fish?
4. Could I have misdiagnosed? I am afraid of not continuing the ich treatment and causing a rebound in the ich population.

 

Edited January 20 by SupersoNick95

[Colu]

Ich looks like flat  white spots that look like a sprinkling of salt of the fins and body rarely on the eyes can you post a picture of the spots @SupersoNick95

[SupersoNick95]

On 1/19/2024 at 9:08 PM, Colu said:

Ich looks like flat  white spots that look like a sprinkling of salt of the fins and body rarely on the eyes can you post a picture of the spots @SupersoNick95

Arent on the eyes, just near, and two tiny ones on his tail fin I just saw now. I tried getting a pic but he moves too much and I cant zoom in enough

[Colu]

Are the spots flat against the body or raised

 

[SupersoNick95]

On 1/19/2024 at 9:14 PM, Colu said:

Are the spots flat against the body or raised

 

Raised

[Colu]

On 1/20/2024 at 2:15 AM, SupersoNick95 said:

Raised

Ich flat you could be deal epistylis he's how you tell the difference between ich and epistylis it feed off of gram negative bacteria on the slime coat of your fish and spreads more quickly at higher temperatures the most effective treatment is a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment such as kanaplex or maracyn2 and ick x

[SupersoNick95]

On 1/19/2024 at 9:20 PM, Colu said:

Ich flat you could be deal epistylis he's how you tell the difference between ich and epistylis it feed off of gram negative bacteria on the slime coat of your fish and spreads more quickly at higher temperatures the most effective treatment is a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment such as kanaplex or maracyn2 and ick x

I looked up epistylis and it looks more flakey and rough. My fish has the small spots that look like ich.

[Colu]

On 1/20/2024 at 2:26 AM, SupersoNick95 said:

I looked up epistylis and it looks more flakey and rough. My fish has the small spots that look like ich.

What I would do is lower temperature increase surface agitation as the apisto has rapid breathing I would keep treating with ick X for the next couple of days 

[SupersoNick95]

On 1/19/2024 at 9:31 PM, Colu said:

What I would do is lower temperature increase surface agitation as the apisto has rapid breathing I would keep treating with ick X for the next couple of days 

Update: It is now day 6 of treatment. I am 95% sure it is ich, i spotted more of the little dots on one Cory. All the corys are beginning to flash again. They also do the gulping air thing very frequently. I lowered the temps to normal (79) and increased surface agitation.

The Apisto is still not eating and remains at the top of the tank. He ventures down to the bottom now and again but hides. Upside, he has not flashed for about 2 days. I suspect the ich is primarily in the gills of the fish. This would explain the heavy breathing and top dwelling. I know the trophonts are not affected by the ich x until they become free-floating.

Could it be that they still have not shaken off the trophonts? I know the life cycle is about 3-6 days, so they may fall off soon from the gills. Hopefully, all fish will improve soon. 

[Colu]

On 1/21/2024 at 7:10 PM, SupersoNick95 said:

Update: It is now day 6 of treatment. I am 95% sure it is ich, i spotted more of the little dots on one Cory. All the corys are beginning to flash again. They also do the gulping air thing very frequently. I lowered the temps to normal (79) and increased surface agitation.

The Apisto is still not eating and remains at the top of the tank. He ventures down to the bottom now and again but hides. Upside, he has not flashed for about 2 days. I suspect the ich is primarily in the gills of the fish. This would explain the heavy breathing and top dwelling. I know the trophonts are not affected by the ich x until they become free-floating.

Could it be that they still have not shaken off the trophonts? I know the life cycle is about 3-6 days, so they may fall off soon from the gills. Hopefully, all fish will improve soon. 

I would also add some aquarium salt  1 table spoon for 5 gallons as ich causes massive electrolyte loss and aquarium salt will aid Gill function and add essential electrolytes  if your still not seeing much improvement in couple of days with the apisto I would also do a course of maracyn2  while still treating with ick X and salt 

[anewbie]

To be honest; i usually find it happens when the water quality is poor. what size is your aquarium and exact population? rummy are normally in large aquarium (48 inches or longer) and large schools - at least 8; same for cory - apisto pairs or trio never do well with cory (lots of stress). Why is this important - stressful fishes get sick. Been through this multiple times this year - large water changes 2 or 3 times a week; thin the population; a bit of rid ick or simliar (kordon, or Hikari) for 2 or 3 days (both recommend 30% or larger water changes between usage. 

Salt can also be used with great success and in many ways i prefer salt but it will do short and long term damage to most plants so i've stopped using salt as a treatment in a planted aquarium. 

To be honest i can never tell if the med or large water changes are curing the issue - the thing is that healthy fish develop a slim layer (why you should never touch them) that help protect them from these icky things.

 

[SupersoNick95]

On 1/21/2024 at 7:18 PM, anewbie said:

To be honest; i usually find it happens when the water quality is poor. what size is your aquarium and exact population? rummy are normally in large aquarium (48 inches or longer) and large schools - at least 8; same for cory - apisto pairs or trio never do well with cory (lots of stress). Why is this important - stressful fishes get sick. Been through this multiple times this year - large water changes 2 or 3 times a week; thin the population; a bit of rid ick or simliar (kordon, or Hikari) for 2 or 3 days (both recommend 30% or larger water changes between usage. 

Salt can also be used with great success and in many ways i prefer salt but it will do short and long term damage to most plants so i've stopped using salt as a treatment in a planted aquarium. 

To be honest i can never tell if the med or large water changes are curing the issue - the thing is that healthy fish develop a slim layer (why you should never touch them) that help protect them from these icky things.

 

It’s a 20 long, 20 rummies and only the sole apisto. I don’t like breeding pairs in a community because they get really stressed. My water parameters are excellent. Which is why this is so frustrating. I’ve noticed apistos have given me lots of issues. I rarely ever get fish deaths and every apisto I’ve had has died prematurely. The rummies are very healthy, eating normally and the Ich x has seemed to held get rich of their flashing. They are nicely colored up as well so idk what could be stressing out the apisto. 

 

[anewbie]

On 1/21/2024 at 6:27 PM, SupersoNick95 said:

It’s a 20 long, 20 rummies and only the sole apisto. I don’t like breeding pairs in a community because they get really stressed. My water parameters are excellent. Which is why this is so frustrating. I’ve noticed apistos have given me lots of issues. I rarely ever get fish deaths and every apisto I’ve had has died prematurely. The rummies are very healthy, eating normally and the Ich x has seemed to held get rich of their flashing. They are nicely colored up as well so idk what could be stressing out the apisto. 

 

How many cory? and single male apisto are still territorial and i would expect him to poke at the cory from time to time. Anyway if your rummy are adults without the cory and apisto the tank is already a bit over populated though probably manageable.

[SupersoNick95]

On 1/21/2024 at 7:34 PM, anewbie said:

How many cory? and single male apisto are still territorial and i would expect him to poke at the cory from time to time. Anyway if your rummy are adults without the cory and apisto the tank is already a bit over populated though probably manageable.

I’m sure he pokes at the corys here and there but I’ve never seen it. I doubt that’d be stressing him out to the point of an Ich outbreak. I have a hard time keeping nitrates high for my plants. Water quality is always great. I don’t think it’s overpopulated tbh. 

Edited January 22 by SupersoNick95

[anewbie]

On 1/21/2024 at 6:39 PM, SupersoNick95 said:

I’m sure he pokes at the apistos here and there but I’ve never seen it. I doubt that’d be stressing him out to the point of an Ich outbreak. I have a hard time keeping nitrates high for my plants. Water quality is always great. I don’t think it’s overpopulated tbh. 

How many cory and what species ?

[SupersoNick95]

On 1/21/2024 at 7:40 PM, anewbie said:

How many cory and what species ?

8, they are the Concolor Cory, aka slate cory

[anewbie]

In my opinion the aquarium is over populated. You don't need high nitrate to grow plants; my personal experience is plants do just fine with 0-5 nitrate; this aquarium is 3 years old - my tap has a bit of mineral (I don't use fertlizer); it has 5 or 6 a. pucallpaensis and a bunch of shrimp. I throw away a lot of hornworth every 3 to 5 weeks.

As long as you are not injecting co2 i would not worry about nitrate level being too low. Everyone (fish) would appreciate low nitrate. If your water is extremely soft you might need a bit of fertilizer but i would be conservative there. 

As to your problem the tank is definitely over populated if most of the fishes are adults but if you do 2 or 3 large weekly water change it might manage. As for the current disease one of the ick meds per direction for 3 days but be religious on those water changes. You can use salt but it will damage your plants - otherwise salt is quite effective but if you use too much it can harm the fish - ALSO - you have to be a bit careful how fast you change the density of the water (both adding and removing); my understanding is when you add it you want to add it all at once (per require dosage) because that shock helps the fish fight the disease but when you remove it you need to do it very gradual. As i noted after having salt causing havok to my plants i've stopped using it as a cure but it certainly did an effective job on the disease. Also if only a few of the fishes are sick you can move them to a 5 gallon pail with sponge filter and treat them there (having a spare heater also helps). 

-

I want to stress in my experience your aquarium is way over populated if the fishes are adults. If they are still growing out it might work depending on actual age of the fishes but long term it really doesn't work well even with large bi-weekly water changes.