Swim bladder issue, adult angelfish

[Jawjagrrl]

Hope the group can advise on my angelfish that began losing balance control 5 days ago. He is half of a tightly bonded breeding pair I raised from dime size and I'd really hate to lose him.

Situation:

- Adult angel breeding pair in a heavily planted 75gal they share with 5 geophagus tapajos, 6 congo tetras and 2 saes. Tank established summer 22, so well established and no losses throughout that time. Male angel only fish showing any signs of illness/stress.

- male angel starting going nose up 5 days ago. 4 days ago he struggled to stay upright and would end up doing loops. The last 3 days he has had more difficulty staying upright and was ending up in "caves" made by geos or stuck in plants. I added a specimen container into the setup to keep him restricted a bit more (see below) he can swim out and move throught the tank for short periods before ending upside down and needing to rest as he is in this pic.

His mate decided today to join him and has been *very* watchful throughout (a congo tetra nipped his upside down dorsal - once. She set him straight!). They were nickel size when added to the setup 20 months ago and will breed every 2 weeks or so but have not succeeded in hatching eggs yet.

- no ammonia or nitrite, ph 6.6, nitrates were around 60ppm before a 25% water change, down to 20ppm now. Kh around 40-60, GH usually around 150, hard to tell on this strip test though.

Temp currently 77 but had a dip recently (see below).

- feeding a mix of Hikari massivore delight, xtreme algae scrapers, xtreme nice pellets and occasionally xtreme community crave flakes as a treat (they grew up on this flake). He has not eaten in 5 days that I am aware of. 

- at some point the heater in this tank died during the holidays and the tank slipped from 76 to around 68 over several days. No one seemed bothered by the cooler water, which I only realized when trimming plants. I swapped the heater (no more blinking EL light!) and gradually brought them up a degree each day back to around 77 where it is now.

- swim bladder disease? Bloat? Dropsy? Something else? I thought bloat perhaps because the tank got cool with no adjustment to their feeding schedule. I thought he looked a bit bloated the first two days, but I don't think that's the case now (see below - if anything she looks larger around the ventral/pectoral area). I have others in a separate tank with same parameters, etc and no issues there either.

Recommendations welcome. I have Cory's med trio on hand but would have to order anything else online as there are no fish stores near me. I avoid meds as much as possible and have inverts in the tank. Thanks so much if you read this far.

Edited January 16 by Jawjagrrl
Added lh, gh values

[Colu]

First I would do epsom salt baths 1 table spoon for 1 gallon for no more than 15 minutes for 5 days as epsom salt acts as a muscle relaxant to help relieve pressure on the swim bladder high levels of nitrates can effect the swim bladder I would aim to keep them below 40ppm @Jawjagrrl

[Jawjagrrl]

On 1/16/2024 at 3:51 PM, Colu said:

First I would do epsom salt baths 1 table spoon for 1 gallon for no more than 15 minutes for 5 days as epsom salt acts as a muscle relaxant to help relieve pressure on the swim bladder high levels of nitrates can effect the swim bladder I would aim to keep them below 40ppm @Jawjagrrl

Thank you, will try this. Do you think the temp issue was a factor as well, or just nitrates? I usually keep around 20ppm but didn't think 60 was too bad outside of more delicate species. Running 2 large sponges ATM but have considered going to a canister for this setup given the larger fish - geos not full size yet.

[Colu]

On 1/16/2024 at 9:03 PM, Jawjagrrl said:

Thank you, will try this. Do you think the temp issue was a factor as well, or just nitrates? I usually keep around 20ppm but didn't think 60 was too bad outside of more delicate species. Running 2 large sponges ATM but have considered going to a canister for this setup given the larger fish - geos not full size yet.

Angelfish are fine at 77°F the temperature dropping to 68°F could be the cause 

Edited January 16 by Colu

[Jawjagrrl]

On 1/16/2024 at 3:51 PM, Colu said:

First I would do epsom salt baths 1 table spoon for 1 gallon for no more than 15 minutes for 5 days

Update: into day 3 of epsom salt baths in a coop specimen container hanging inside the tank to keep temps the same - 4x a day.

Minimal if any improvement - perhaps 30 minutes of awkward swimming upside down or head up before becoming fatigued and landing in plants or in the other container so he doesn't sustain further fin/scale injuries from the bottom or scraping wood/rocks in tank.

Still hasn't eaten - a good week now but was in good body condition before and isn't looking thin yet. Temp now at a full 78 degrees.

Anything else I can be doing for him? He still shows a lot of fight and his mate has been at his side - often in the container - throughout. Heartbreaking to think of losing him for her sake.

Still concerned that it was that temp dip in temp into the high 60s that triggered this. He is the largest fish in the setup, tank boss. No one else showing any issues or signs of disease and nothing has been changed/added to the setup for a full year.

[Colu]

It could have been the temperature drop swim bladder can be caused by number of things such an injury to the swim bladder or bacterial infection or the fish over eating and the stomach putting pressure on the swim bladder what I would do is a course of maracyn2 or kanaplex which everyone is more readily available just in case there's a bacterial component if it's an injury he might get better given time or the damage could be permanent @Jawjagrrl

[Jawjagrrl]

Thank you @Colu

I didnt observe an injury situation, but the tetras can be pretty rowdy - everyone gives the angels space though. nitrates are usually low given tbe high amount of plants - I have to harvest red root floaters regularly.

I only have maracyn on hand, so will have to order thr kanaplex or maracyn2 - is one better than the other in this situation? There are inverts in the tank, btw. I am concerned about his fin damages not getting infected.

Should I continue the epsom salt baths? Hospital tank with his mate?

[Colu]

On 1/19/2024 at 11:34 PM, Jawjagrrl said:

Thank you @Colu

I didnt observe an injury situation, but the tetras can be pretty rowdy - everyone gives the angels space though. nitrates are usually low given tbe high amount of plants - I have to harvest red root floaters regularly.

I only have maracyn on hand, so will have to order thr kanaplex or maracyn2 - is one better than the other in this situation? There are inverts in the tank, btw. I am concerned about his fin damages not getting infected.

Should I continue the epsom salt baths? Hospital tank with his mate?

I would treat with Maracyn2 is safe to use with shrimp the active ingredient minocycline also has anti-inflammatory properties kanaplex can be stressful to invertebrates. I would do epsom just for 5 days if your seeing no improvement 

[Jawjagrrl]

Will go with the maracyn2 then. I have quite a colony of ramshorn snails too - I'm seeing conflicting reports on safety for them. I hate to stress the angels more with a hospital tank move, but wondering if that's better at this point?

 

[Colu]

On 1/19/2024 at 11:52 PM, Jawjagrrl said:

Will go with the maracyn2 then. I have quite a colony of ramshorn snails too - I'm seeing conflicting reports on safety for them. I hate to stress the angels more with a hospital tank move, but wondering if that's better at this point?

 

I used Maracyn2 with  Ramshorn bladder and mts in tank without any problems it would be better to quarantine and treat on his own

Edited January 20 by Colu

[Jawjagrrl]

That's good to know. 

Looks like at least Monday to get ahold of maracyn2 or kanaplex from anywhere, and from what I'm reading the Maracyn I have on hand as a gram positive med isn't likely to be of much help.

EDIT: Having a hard time finding the Maracyn anywhere that looks like a trusted source - the Coop doesn't carry it for some reason. Fritz has no info on their site, Petsmart, Chewy and Walmart don't either. 

Where are people finding this? Found 1 seller on Amazon that will take a week, a few on Ebay that are similar. Any substitutes that might be suitable? Kanaplex is looking almost as hard to get.

Edited January 20 by Jawjagrrl
can't find these meds!

[Colu]

On 1/20/2024 at 12:38 AM, Jawjagrrl said:

That's good to know. 

Looks like at least Monday to get ahold of maracyn2 or kanaplex from anywhere, and from what I'm reading the Maracyn I have on hand as a gram positive med isn't likely to be of much help.

Maracyn predominantly treats gram positive and some gram negative bacteria it's only affective at treating internal bacterial infections when added to food were as maracyn2 treats gram negative and some gram positive bacteria is absorbed into the blood stream so it's affective at treating internal bacterial infections when added to the tank 

[Jawjagrrl]

Thankfully we found a good lfs in the nearest college town to us that actually carried kanaplex and maracyn2. My husband happened to be wearing his Murphy hat, which got the nerm ball rolling at the store - just wish they weren't an almost 3 hour round trip away. They suggested kanaplex and neoplex used together - I went with the maracyn2 because I already have maracyn to use with it or a follow up.

He's still about the same, but has lost about half his dorsal fin now, which was why I was anxious to start an external treatment. Seeing some stringy debris that I thought was just organics he picked up crashing into plants, but now less sure of that.

Fritz has instructions on how to use the two together and the LFS owner was proposing the same, just with the kanaplex/neoplex. Is this really that much of a risk given how he is presenting now? I've got a hospital tank set up and ready to start medicating it and moving him in...

I do appreciate all the help and hope my questions aren't coming across as argumentative - just trying to more fully understand in a situation where I've gotten conflicting information. Really stressed as I deal with injuries and illness so rarely in my tanks and this pair is very special to me. Her devotion to her sick mate is unlike anything I've ever seen in my setups, even my Mbunas that I bred for a long time back in the 90s.

[Jawjagrrl]

ANGELFISH UPDATE: 

Setup up hospital tank last Saturday, moved the pair in on Sunday morning and began a course of Maracyn2. She was beginning to show signs of fin rot and glad I have been treating her as well - deterioration of fins stopped quickly with both fish after beginning treatment as per Fritz instructions.

How he/they looked on 1/21:

tired and resting a lot on the sand or against the side with occasional bursts or energy and swimming (upside down or nose up). Breathing not overly labored, but less motivated to swim in a 10gal.

Today (1/26) is the water change day, no more meds this round. How he looks now:

He has been off the sand 100% of the time for several days, still balancing a bit on his tail fin but often in the water column in this same orientation. She is eating krill flake, he isn't eating - but he does become more active when I feed her.

Advice on next steps? Another round of Maracyn2 or a different gram negative treatment like kanaplex? Something else? While not a big change, it does feel like he has improved and he does try to react whenever anyone enters the room. TIA

[Colu]

On 1/26/2024 at 4:15 PM, Jawjagrrl said:

ANGELFISH UPDATE: 

Setup up hospital tank last Saturday, moved the pair in on Sunday morning and began a course of Maracyn2. She was beginning to show signs of fin rot and glad I have been treating her as well - deterioration of fins stopped quickly with both fish after beginning treatment as per Fritz instructions.

How he/they looked on 1/21:

tired and resting a lot on the sand or against the side with occasional bursts or energy and swimming (upside down or nose up). Breathing not overly labored, but less motivated to swim in a 10gal.

Today (1/26) is the water change day, no more meds this round. How he looks now:

He has been off the sand 100% of the time for several days, still balancing a bit on his tail fin but often in the water column in this same orientation. She is eating krill flake, he isn't eating - but he does become more active when I feed her.

Advice on next steps? Another round of Maracyn2 or a different gram negative treatment like kanaplex? Something else? While not a big change, it does feel like he has improved and he does try to react whenever anyone enters the room. TIA

I would follow up with a second course of maracyn2 as he's shown some improvement  have you tried using some tweezers try to target feed him 

[Jawjagrrl]

On 1/26/2024 at 7:13 PM, Colu said:

I would follow up with a second course of maracyn2 as he's shown some improvement  have you tried using some tweezers try to target feed him 

I did the water change (25%). So for a second round would I be able to start with a single packet since there are still meds in the water?

I have not tried tweezers yet, but will now that he is reacting more when I approach.

So do you think since there is *some* improvement he may recover? Looking to do what's  best for the fish and manage our expectations. Thanks!

[Colu]

On 1/27/2024 at 12:42 AM, Jawjagrrl said:

I did the water change (25%). So for a second round would I be able to start with a single packet since there are still meds in the water?

I have not tried tweezers yet, but will now that he is reacting more when I approach.

So do you think since there is *some* improvement he may recover? Looking to do what's  best for the fish and manage our expectations. Thanks!

There's a possibility he will get better given time it could also go other way I would do the second course of maracyn2 if don't see any improvement and he's still not eating i would consider euthanizing him with clove oil  after your water change you can run carbon for 24hr to remove any remaining medication then start on the second course of maracyn2 

[Jawjagrrl]

Here's where we are today. Still vertical, occasionally swimming around before resting and doing his tail stand. He is not able to swim normally and would not eve attempt to take food with tweezers in this position. 

I did try alternately to carefully hold him upright and feed from a small cosmetic tweezer vs an aquascaping one. Krill flake got spit out, so tried vibra bites. Some of that got spit out as well, but during one attempt I felt his body "flex" and I did not see any food reappear, so I think he did manage to get a bit down. This leaves me more hopeful that a second dose of the M2 might help as I was starting to seriously consider euthanasia now.

Will be heading to the  not-so-LFS today if there is anything else you'd reccommend picking up. As posted previously we have basic meds on hand only - paraclense, maracyn and ichX. 

Edited January 28 by Jawjagrrl

[Colu]

I would also get API fin and body cure active ingredient is doxcycline I would also get expel p active ingredient is levamisole always good to have to hand @Jawjagrrl

[Jawjagrrl]

Sadly, this angel did not improve and had to be euthanized - I never did get him to keep any food down and the additional maracyn didn't improve anything. Raised from dime size and a tough loss.

There was a silver lining however. The female did benefit from the course of meds with early stage fin rot healing quickly. She was returned to the 75 but was pretty mopey. Also full of eggs as this pair bred every couple weeks like clockwork, but never successfully.

I had acquired a small number of these guys as dimes with an extra male that is the lonely guy in a other tank with 3 pairs that have never spawned. As it happened, also the nicest male of the bunch. So I decided to give him a chance with her. As devoted as she was to the op male, I had my doubts but hoped her biological imperative would kick in.

They were excited from the moment I set the specimen container in to temp match, frantically trying to reach one another. Within an hour they were closing sword leaves to clean.

Another day and they have begun spawning, doing a good job of keeping the congo tetras at bay while working row by row.

They've covered 2/3rds of a sword leaf!

This is his first time so not expecting much, but glad she isn't alone and the remaining pairs no longer have a 3rd wheel.

Sorry for the messy glass, but this was unexpected today. 

Edited February 5 by Jawjagrrl

[Colu]

On 2/5/2024 at 1:14 AM, Jawjagrrl said:

Sadly, this angel did not improve and had to be euthanized - I never did get him to keep any food down and the additional maracyn didn't improve anything. Raised from dime size and a tough loss.

There was a silver lining however. The female did benefit from the course of meds with early stage fin rot healing quickly. She was returned to the 75 but was pretty mopey. Also full of eggs as this pair bred every couple weeks like clockwork, but never successfully.

I had acquired a small number of these guys as dimes with an extra male that is the lonely guy in a other tank with 3 pairs that have never spawned. As it happened, also the nicest male of the bunch. So I decided to give him a chance with her. As devoted as she was to the op male, I had my doubts but hoped her biological imperative would kick in.

They were excited from the moment I set the specimen container in to temp match, frantically trying to reach one another. Within an hour they were closing sword leaves to clean.

Another day and they have begun spawning, doing a good job of keeping the congo tetras at bay while working row by row.

They've covered 2/3rds of a sword leaf!

This is his first time so not expecting much, but glad she isn't alone and the remaining pairs no longer have a 3rd wheel.

Sorry for the messy glass, but this was unexpected today. 

Sorry to hear he didn't make it you did all you could for him 

[Jawjagrrl]

On 2/4/2024 at 9:14 PM, Colu said:

Sorry to hear he didn't make it you did all you could for him 

Thanks for all your advice. The only thing I wonder now is if I had started meds right away, but perhaps the damage was done. Just glad the female has accepted another male in his absence. They are guarding a bunch of eggs as I post.

[Colu]

On 2/5/2024 at 8:45 PM, Jawjagrrl said:

Thanks for all your advice. The only thing I wonder now is if I had started meds right away, but perhaps the damage was done. Just glad the female has accepted another male in his absence. They are guarding a bunch of eggs as I post.

With the symptoms and fact he never fully recovered even with treatment it's more than likely a permanent injury to the swim bladder