Curling leaves, deficiency

[BF McUmber]

My pogostemon stellatus octopus has started to grow quite curled leaves.  Would this behavior most likely be a calcium deficiency and mg overdose? Should I be considering something else as well?

My dwarf sag is also not doing so hot. How do you know if it dying because it is not getting enough light? 

Nitrate=40

Hardness >300

Kh=40

Ph =6.8

5ml Easy green weekly, crushed coral at base of sponge filter,  root tabs have been inserted below the the plants two or 3 times.  

[KBOzzie59]

Here something that might help.

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/pages/help-center#/collection/4962/article/24531

Edited July 23, 2023 by KBOzzie59

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 7/22/2023 at 4:00 PM, BF McUmber said:

My pogostemon stellatus octopus has started to grow quite curled leaves.  Would this behavior most likely be a calcium deficiency and mg overdose? Should I be considering something else as well?

My dwarf sag is also not doing so hot. How do you know if it dying because it is not getting enough light? 

Nitrate=40

Hardness >300

Kh=40

Ph =6.8

5ml Easy green weekly, crushed coral at base of sponge filter,  root tabs have been inserted below the the plants two or 3 times. 

Hi @BF McUmber

First of all the water in your tank is very, very hard with a >16 dGH as is you dKH of over 40!  Is that the measurements you get when your tap water or well or is the crushed coral adding all that carbonate and calcium hardness?  Please test your tap water and report your results along with the tank size please.  Thank you, -Roy



 

[BF McUmber]

@Seattle_Aquarist my water is that hard coming out of the tap. The majority of it is magnesium though. I have measured the calcium in the past as 4 to 4.5 degrees and the gh as 14 to 17 degrees. I have not tested with the liquid kit in a long while, having the coop test strips now.  Out of the tap I have closer to 100 ppm of kh. 

The tank is a 40 breeder.  

Based on looks and the charts I thought calcium deficiency or magnesium overload as they both deform the leaf growth.  However, I would think my water supplies enough calcium.  

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @BF McUmber,

I apologize, life got busy but I have used the time to do some calculations and research.  Just to recap and confirm:

Hardness = 300+ (ppm?) (which calculates to dGH = 16.75+)
Ca = 4.0 - 4.5 degrees (interesting this is usually reported in ppm); 4.0 - 4.5 degrees = 4.25 X 17.9 or about 76 ppm of calcium
Tap water = 100 (ppm?) (100/17.9 = 5.6 dKH)

Based upon the above, it would indicate that the water in your tank has about 76 ppm of calcium and 27.7 ppm of magnesium.  Yes, your water is very hard.  No, the majority of that hardness is NOT magnesium.

You didn't indicate what type of tests your are using for the results you indicated however if it were me I would pick up the following and re-test.

API GH / KH Test Kit (combo kit or individual kits) - $11 to $12
Salifert Calcium Profi Test Kit - $16

Also, I don't recall, are you on municipal (city) water or well water?  If city water what city and utility and I will check for a water quality report.  If well water is there a water softener on the water supply?  -Roy

 

[BF McUmber]

On 8/16/2023 at 10:49 AM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @BF McUmber,

I apologize, life got busy but I have used the time to do some calculations and research.  Just to recap and confirm:

 

Thank you for the response Roy. I think in your math you took my KH measurement as the GH. Additionally, I misspoke when I said my calcium was 4.5 degrees. It was 4 to 5 drops in the API calcium test kit, which does not scale as the same rate as degrees but it is close. Today I went and did a larger battery of tests on the tank water and the tap water and put it in the below table. My API liquid GH test kit was not changing color so I was unable to get a new reading for the GH. The liquid kit is not expired and I have not used it since getting the COOP strips, so I'm not sure what is wrong with it. Using the old data I have the GH readings are about 250-300ppm which with 100ppm of Calcium would leave 175ppm for magnesium. Since my original post I have put 2 small wondershells in to see if it made a difference. I have not seen a change in their response though. 

 

I am on city water. My water is provided by the village of Waverly in NY. 

All the values in the table have been converted to PPM. (with the exception of temperature and PH :P)

Thank you
Brad

 

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 8/18/2023 at 7:05 PM, BF McUmber said:

Thank you for the response Roy. I think in your math you took my KH measurement as the GH. Additionally, I misspoke when I said my calcium was 4.5 degrees. It was 4 to 5 drops in the API calcium test kit, which does not scale as the same rate as degrees but it is close. Today I went and did a larger battery of tests on the tank water and the tap water and put it in the below table. My API liquid GH test kit was not changing color so I was unable to get a new reading for the GH. The liquid kit is not expired and I have not used it since getting the COOP strips, so I'm not sure what is wrong with it. Using the old data I have the GH readings are about 250-300ppm which with 100ppm of Calcium would leave 175ppm for magnesium. Since my original post I have put 2 small wondershells in to see if it made a difference. I have not seen a change in their response though. 

 

I am on city water. My water is provided by the village of Waverly in NY. 

All the values in the table have been converted to PPM. (with the exception of temperature and PH :P)

Thank you
Brad

 

 

Hi Brad.

The chart helps but one question, the KH of the tank water is 80 ppm per the test strip but 100 dKH per the API test??!!  80 ppm would be about 80/17.0 or about 4.47 dKH yet looking at the chart the API Test Kit is saying you are at 100 dKH.....HUGE difference.  Please confirm those numbers for me. -Roy

 

[BF McUmber]

On 8/19/2023 at 3:15 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi Brad.

The chart helps but one question, the KH of the tank water is 80 ppm per the test strip but 100 dKH per the API test??!!  80 ppm would be about 80/17.0 or about 4.47 dKH yet looking at the chart the API Test Kit is saying you are at 100 dKH.....HUGE difference.  Please confirm those numbers for me. -Roy

 

All the values in the chart are in PPM. I should have cropped the conversions at the top to not be confused with being headers for the the columns they are over. 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi Brad,

OK, I think I understand.....all readings are in ppm. Given that then:
pH@ 7.2 - 8.0 (pretty big variance!)
dKH (hardness)@ 300ppm (16.75 dGH)
calcium@ 100ppm (how was this determined?)
magnesium@16.8ppm (calculated)

Personally I don't like or use 'test strips' to do my water analysis.  My personal experience is that at lower nutrient levels the readings are less accurate with test strips than liquid test readings.

So what does all this tell us?  First of all the pH of the tank is >7.0 and is alkaline.  This inhibits the uptake of the most common form of iron, EDTA chelated.  As of my last check uses Easy Green uses EDTA chelated iron.  How much does it inhibit it?  Let's assume that the pH is half way between the two readings or pH@7.6.  Looking at the chart below we see that at a pH of 7.6 less than 5% of the chelated iron in solution is available to our plants.  At a pH above 7.0 DTPA or EDDHA chelated iron are much more available to plants (as is ferrous gluconate which is used in Seachem Iron). 

Secondly the recommended ration of calcium to magnesium (Ca:Mg) is somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1.  Seachem Equilibrium is approximately 3.3:1.  When we deviate much from that ratio we run the risk of nutrient antagonism as described by Gerardus Johannes Mulder and expressed in Mulder's Chart of Nutrient Interactions.
Looking at the chart below we see that excess calcium (Ca) can impede the uptake of magnesium (Mg) as well as other nutrients.  That is why I do not recommend the use of crushed coral in planted tanks.  No only does the crushed coral increase the amount of calcium in the tank as it dissolved when the pH is below approximately 7.6 but it increases the pH of a tank effecting the uptake of iron.

Now let's look at the plant symptoms in the tank in the photo below.  The first is the 'curling' leaves (arrow #1).  The second symptom I spotted was the leaf issues with the cryptocoryne in the photo (arrow #2).   Notice how the leaf margins are bending ('cupping')?  'Cupping' of leaf margins (either up or down) is a symptom of insufficient available magnesium.  Lastly I noticed the loss of older leaves on the stems of the Pogostemon stellatus 'Octopus' (arrow #3).  This is also a symptom of insufficient available magnesium.


What would I do if this were my tank?  First of all I would remove (siphon out?) as much of the crushed coral as possible it is not needed. Assuming the 100ppm of calcium in the tap water is correct then it has more than sufficient calcium and the calcium carbonate in the crushed coral is adversely affecting the pH of the tank .  Secondly I would make sure I am doing my 50% weekly water changes to minimize the build up of mineral concentrations due to evaporation and to replenish the nutrients utilized by the plants. 

Now to deal with the calcium / magnesium issue.  Since it is always easier to add something to water than to remove it I would first start by adding more magnesium to the tank and see if there is any improvement.  Why is adding magnesium indicated?  The 'curling' leaves are not so much showing the typically leaf tip hooking indicated by a lack of available calcium but are doing more of what you described which is 'curling'.  So this is my third recommendation, after your next 50% water change add some magnesium to the tank.  How?  Go to your local drugstore or grocery and pick up a pound of Epsom Salt (aka magnesium sulfate / MgSO4*7H2O).  Get the cheapest stuff on the shelf with no additives or scents.  Next do an initial dose of 1-1/4 teaspoons per 10 gallons of water volume of the Epsom Salt to your tank, it will dissolve in a couple hours.  This will add about 16ppm of Mg to your tank getting you close to that 3:1 calcium to magnesium ratio, unfortunately it will also increase the hardness by about 3.7 dGH.  Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change add 1-1/4 teaspoon of Epsom Salt per 10 gallons of new water added.  Do this for four (4) weeks and watch the new growth as it emerges and matures; do not watch the existing leaves they will not improve and may continue to decline.  Does the new growth (leaves) look healthier, more straight/flat, and possibly greener?  You may also notice an increase in the growth rate of the plants.

Lastly I would like you to pick up some Seachem Iron which is made from ferrous gluconate and start dosing it as well.  Ferrous gluconate has better nutrient availability is and us much easier for plants to absorb when the pH of a tank is greater than 7.0.  Add one (1) teaspoon of Seachem Iron per 10 gallons of tank water volume once a week to increase the available iron by about 1.3ppm.  Questions, just ask!  Hope this helps -Roy

ps.  our other option is trying to reduce the amount of calcium in the tank and that would require removing the crushed coral and using RO/DI water. -R

Edited August 20, 2023 by Seattle_Aquarist

[BF McUmber]

@Seattle_Aquarist thank you for that comprehensive reply. 

I used the api calcium test kit.  It says it is for salt water but when I asked them at the store they said it works for fresh water as well.  

I'm am confused as how you arrived at my tank only having 16.8ppm of magnesium? Would it not be 304ppm total hardness minus 100ppm calcium equals 204ppm magnesium? 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi Brad,  Good, then my recommendations above hold.

The formula to calculate the amount of magnesium in a tank if we know the dGH and calcium ppm is this:
(ppm dGH - (2.5 x Ca ppm)) /4.1 = Mg ppm

I made a quick and dirty calculator on Excel, here were the results for your tank:

Keep us posted as to how things progress! -Roy

Edited August 21, 2023 by Seattle_Aquarist

[BF McUmber]

Thank you for that education on the hardness. I don't know with how it has been said other places that I would have looked up that formula.