Possible nutrient deficiency

[Jeff_F]

Spoiler

 

I am getting some leaves curling and looking splotchy like in the attached picture.  Is this due to a nutrient deficency?  If so…which one?

thanks,

jeff

[Mmiller2001]

Leaf curling is usually related to low CO2, Ca or Mg deficiency. There’s some micro deficiencies that could cause this as well.

[JoeQ]

Usually when leaves look "tired" like that, I concentrate on upping my macros instead of looking for the specific deficiency. 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 7/10/2023 at 9:13 AM, Jeff_F said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I am getting some leaves curling and looking splotchy like in the attached picture.  Is this due to a nutrient deficency?  If so…which one?

thanks,

jeff

Hi Jeff,

Let's start with the basics......what are your water parameters?  (pH, dKH, dGH)

What size tank are we talking about and what nutrients are you dosing and how much per week?

Also a full picture of your tank so we can get the amount of plants are in it would help.

Thanks, -Roy

 

[Jeff_F]

On 7/10/2023 at 7:32 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi Jeff,

Let's start with the basics......what are your water parameters?  (pH, dKH, dGH)

What size tank are we talking about and what nutrients are you dosing and how much per week?

Also a full picture of your tank so we can get the amount of plants are in it would help.

Thanks, -Roy

 

It is a 20 gallon tank with Aquarium Coop light set at 60% and I inject CO2.  The water parameters are:

ph - 6.6
GH - 6 dGH
KH - 3 dKH

i dose Easy Green at 3 ml per day and do 50% water change once a week (similar to EI dosing)

 

 

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 7/10/2023 at 5:15 PM, Jeff_F said:

It is a 20 gallon tank with Aquarium Coop light set at 60% and I inject CO2.  The water parameters are:

ph - 6.6
GH - 6 dGH
KH - 3 dKH

i dose Easy Green at 3 ml per day and do 50% water change once a week (similar to EI dosing)

Hi Jeff,

Dosing 3 ml per day for a 20 gallon tank that would be about 4.5 ppm of NO3 per day.  In addition if 4.5 ml of NO3 is being dosed every day with a 50% water change weekly that computes to nitrate concentration of somewhere 40 - 80 ppm or 2X to 4X the 20 ppm I would consider "normal".  Do you monitor your nitrate ppm and if so what reading are you getting and are you using a liquid or test-strip type test?  To achieve a nitrate concentration of about 20 ppm with 50% weekly water changes I would suggest dosing 3 ml of Easy Green every other day and skip dosing on the day you do water changes.

Looking at your pictures most of the plants look healthy with a couple of exceptions.  Based upon your dKH and dGH levels I would suspect there is very little calcium and magnesium in the local water.  I see some leaf tip 'hooking' which indicates insufficient available calcium and the 'cupping' of the leaves of some species along with the loss of older leaves and the chlorosis (yellowing) of some new growth magnesium is likely insufficient as well.  To resolve this I suggest Seachem Equilibrium .  For your 20 gallon tank do an initial dose of 3 teaspoons.  Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change, add 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added.  Do this for four (4) weeks.

At the end of four weeks look at your plants.  Do the new leaves look healthier, more flat, with better coloration?  (You may also see an increase in the growth rate of your plants.) Don't look at the older leaves that existed prior to the addition of Equilibrium to your dosing regime.....they will not improve and may continue to decline.  You can tell if the change(s) have worked by looking at your new growth.

Hope this helps! -Roy

 

[Jeff_F]

On 7/10/2023 at 9:18 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi Jeff,

Dosing 3 ml per day for a 20 gallon tank that would be about 4.5 ppm of NO3 per day.  In addition if 4.5 ml of NO3 is being dosed every day with a 50% water change weekly that computes to nitrate concentration of somewhere 40 - 80 ppm or 2X to 4X the 20 ppm I would consider "normal".  Do you monitor your nitrate ppm and if so what reading are you getting and are you using a liquid or test-strip type test?  To achieve a nitrate concentration of about 20 ppm with 50% weekly water changes I would suggest dosing 3 ml of Easy Green every other day and skip dosing on the day you do water changes.

Looking at your pictures most of the plants look healthy with a couple of exceptions.  Based upon your dKH and dGH levels I would suspect there is very little calcium and magnesium in the local water.  I see some leaf tip 'hooking' which indicates insufficient available calcium and the 'cupping' of the leaves of some species along with the loss of older leaves and the chlorosis (yellowing) of some new growth magnesium is likely insufficient as well.  To resolve this I suggest Seachem Equilibrium .  For your 20 gallon tank do an initial dose of 3 teaspoons.  Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change, add 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added.  Do this for four (4) weeks.

At the end of four weeks look at your plants.  Do the new leaves look healthier, more flat, with better coloration?  (You may also see an increase in the growth rate of your plants.) Don't look at the older leaves that existed prior to the addition of Equilibrium to your dosing regime.....they will not improve and may continue to decline.  You can tell if the change(s) have worked by looking at your new growth.

Hope this helps! -Roy

 

Roy,

 

   Thank  you very much for the information.    I do test my nitrates using both liquid and test strip methods.  However, they always seem to disagree with each other!  The liquid test does indicate nitrates in the 40-80 ppm range but the Aquarium Coop test strips show closer to 25.  I was never sure which to believe but I've always felt the liquid test was more accurate.  I would like to know how you calculated the numbers so I can do it in the future.  I understand the 4.5 ppm daily dosage based on the Easy Green 3 ppm per 10 gallons of water.  How did you compute that that will give me 40-80 ppm with dosing everyday and a 50% water change. 

I actually use RO water with Seachem Equilibrium.  I use RO water because we are on a well system with a salt-based water softener and our water is not very good.  We have a water purifier (RO) for our drinking water and I have a small RO unit that I use to make my aquarium water for water changes.  I add 10 grams (about a teaspoon) to the 10 gallons of water for the water change.    You said "based upon the dKH and dGH levels you suspect little calcium and magnesium" , so what values do you shoot for?  I didn't think these levels were out of the normal range.  

 

Although I like Easy Green I've been looking at the 2hr Aquarist APT 3 complete and their APT E products.  Are you familiar with them?  They have gotten a lot of good reviews.  

Thanks for your help.

Jeff

 

[Mmiller2001]

How are you measuring CO2?

[Jeff_F]

On 7/10/2023 at 11:01 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

How are you measuring CO2?

I measure the ph just before it turns on for the day and then about 4 hours later and I have a 1 ph difference.  That should be 30 ppm co2.  
 

I also have a drop checker and it is in the green color.

[Mmiller2001]

On 7/10/2023 at 9:17 PM, Jeff_F said:

I measure the ph just before it turns on for the day and then about 4 hours later and I have a 1 ph difference.  That should be 30 ppm co2.  
 

I also have a drop checker and it is in the green color.

I’d back the nutrients down to a NO3 accumulation total of 30ppm. That would be a 15ppm weekly total from Easy Green. I’d also drop KH to 0-1 degree as long as you don’t have fish with specific requirements.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 7/10/2023 at 7:42 PM, Jeff_F said:

Roy,

 

   Thank  you very much for the information.    I do test my nitrates using both liquid and test strip methods.  However, they always seem to disagree with each other!  The liquid test does indicate nitrates in the 40-80 ppm range but the Aquarium Coop test strips show closer to 25.  I was never sure which to believe but I've always felt the liquid test was more accurate.  I would like to know how you calculated the numbers so I can do it in the future.  I understand the 4.5 ppm daily dosage based on the Easy Green 3 ppm per 10 gallons of water.  How did you compute that that will give me 40-80 ppm with dosing everyday and a 50% water change. 

I actually use RO water with Seachem Equilibrium.  I use RO water because we are on a well system with a salt-based water softener and our water is not very good.  We have a water purifier (RO) for our drinking water and I have a small RO unit that I use to make my aquarium water for water changes.  I add 10 grams (about a teaspoon) to the 10 gallons of water for the water change.    You said "based upon the dKH and dGH levels you suspect little calcium and magnesium" , so what values do you shoot for?  I didn't think these levels were out of the normal range.  

 

Although I like Easy Green I've been looking at the 2hr Aquarist APT 3 complete and their APT E products.  Are you familiar with them?  They have gotten a lot of good reviews.  

Thanks for your help.

Jeff

 

Hi @Jeff_F,

I have used test strips in the past (not ACO) and found them to be inaccurate.  I have mixed up calibrated solutions of potassium nitrate and distilled water and found my API Nitrate Test Kits to be very very accurate in the 10 ppm - 100 ppm range if I follow directions.

I'd like to tell you I'm a math wiz but not true.  The 4.5 ppm daily dosage was easy, the range nitrate range at equilibrium I got using a calculator.  BTW I misspoke, it is not 40 ppm - 80 ppm but rather 36 ppm - 63 ppm.


Now if you go to dosing the same 4.5 ml but reduce the dosing to 2X per week with a 50% weekly water change the average nitrate level should settle at about 20 ppm.

Since you are using RO water and mineralizing with Equilibrium is should not be too difficult to increase your dGH by about 2.0 dGH.  Unfortunately Equilibrium only contains calcium, magnesium, potassium, iron, and manganese.  It does not contain many of the micro-nutrients.  Now Easy Green does contain many of the micro-nutrients but if you reduce dosing to get the nitrate level to a more "normal" level will there be sufficient micros?  It can be calculated but would take some effort.  If you reduce the Easy Green dosing to maintain about a 20 ppm nitrate level you may find that adding a good micro-nutrient blend (I like Seachem Flourish NOT Seachem Trace) will provide good results.

I used to use Equilibrium but it got expensive and has too much potassium to my liking.  With five planted tanks totally 180 gallons I went to mixing my own DIY hardness booster using Calcium Sulfate (Ca2SO4), Magnesium Sulfate (MgSO4*7H2O aka Epsom Salt), and Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4).  If you would like more information on this let me know.

Hope this helps! -Roy



 

 

[Jeff_F]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:05 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Jeff_F,

I have used test strips in the past (not ACO) and found them to be inaccurate.  I have mixed up calibrated solutions of potassium nitrate and distilled water and found my API Nitrate Test Kits to be very very accurate in the 10 ppm - 100 ppm range if I follow directions.

I'd like to tell you I'm a math wiz but not true.  The 4.5 ppm daily dosage was easy, the range nitrate range at equilibrium I got using a calculator.  BTW I misspoke, it is not 40 ppm - 80 ppm but rather 36 ppm - 63 ppm.


Now if you go to dosing the same 4.5 ml but reduce the dosing to 2X per week with a 50% weekly water change the average nitrate level should settle at about 20 ppm.

Since you are using RO water and mineralizing with Equilibrium is should not be too difficult to increase your dGH by about 2.0 dGH.  Unfortunately Equilibrium only contains calcium, magnesium, potassium, iron, and manganese.  It does not contain many of the micro-nutrients.  Now Easy Green does contain many of the micro-nutrients but if you reduce dosing to get the nitrate level to a more "normal" level will there be sufficient micros?  It can be calculated but would take some effort.  If you reduce the Easy Green dosing to maintain about a 20 ppm nitrate level you may find that adding a good micro-nutrient blend (I like Seachem Flourish NOT Seachem Trace) will provide good results.

I used to use Equilibrium but it got expensive and has too much potassium to my liking.  With five planted tanks totally 180 gallons I went to mixing my own DIY hardness booster using Calcium Sulfate (Ca2SO4), Magnesium Sulfate (MgSO4*7H2O aka Epsom Salt), and Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4).  If you would like more information on this let me know.

Hope this helps! -Roy

 

Hi Roy,
I've been thinking about our email exchanges and have a follow-up question.  I've been dosing trying to simulate the EI method of dosing.  George Farmer says 2ml per 10 gal of water with most of the commercial liquid all-in-one fertilizers.  That is what I have been doing.  We have been talking about cutting back from that, which is fine but was I doing something wrong based on trying to use the EI method?  I like the idea of dosing everyday to keep a uniform level of nutrients and to over dose so nothing is lacking.  Is the problem that I was just using too much?  Can you actually over-dose when doing large water changes?  I'm about 6 months into a planted tank so still learning!!

Thanks,

Jeff

 

 

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 7/13/2023 at 7:35 AM, Jeff_F said:

Hi Roy,
I've been thinking about our email exchanges and have a follow-up question.  I've been dosing trying to simulate the EI method of dosing.  George Farmer says 2ml per 10 gal of water with most of the commercial liquid all-in-one fertilizers.  That is what I have been doing.  We have been talking about cutting back from that, which is fine but was I doing something wrong based on trying to use the EI method?  I like the idea of dosing everyday to keep a uniform level of nutrients and to over dose so nothing is lacking.  Is the problem that I was just using too much?  Can you actually over-dose when doing large water changes?  I'm about 6 months into a planted tank so still learning!!

Thanks,

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I've used several dosing methods over the last 15 years including PPS-Pro and EI (Estimative Index).  When doing EI I did (and still do) 50% water changes.  The question as to whether you can overdose a nutrient when dosing EI with an all-in-one fertilizer if you are doing 50% water changes the answer is yes.  Are you dosing too much?  I would not intentionally dose a planted tank to the levels you have been dosing.  If it were me I would try to target a nitrate level no higher than 20 ppm (measured just before water changes).  First I would stop dosing.  Then I would start with doing two (2) 50% water changes over a 2 day period to 'reset' my tank.  Lastly I would drop the dosing level to 2.0 ml @ 3X per week.  I would do that for four (4) weeks at which time the tank should be at equilibrium.  Then I would measure my nitrate (NO3) level just before a water change.  If the level is significantly above 20 ppm I would drop the amount I am dosing.  If the level is significantly below 20 ppm I would increase the amount I am dosing.  If I change the dosing level then I would continue that level for four (4) and again check the nitrate level.

I discontinued EI dosing about 4 years ago.  The problem was that when dosing into the water column, especially with nitrates, I was constantly battling algae growth especially on the glass and hardscape; even with a total photoperiod of five (5) hours per day.  This started me doing more research and thinking about plants in nature and their uptake of nutrients.

What I found that in clean, pristine aquatic environments which are mostly devoid of algae the level of nitrates in the water is very low to non-existent.  Many aquatic plants we use in our aquariums are "marginals" which have adapted to living along the shores of rivers and lakes that experience periods during low water where they live emerged from the water.  Obviously to grow when emerged from the water they must be getting their nutrients from the root zone and not the water column.  So was my thinking wrong regarding feeding my plants?

In 2019 our local club hosted the International Aquatic Gardeners Association Convention here in Seattle.  There were several of the planted aquarium 'rock stars' in attendance including Christel Kasselmann, Dennis Wong, Kara Wade, Cory, and Vin Kutty.  One of the presentations that they gave that I found most interesting was given by Vin Kutty who described the issues he had growing Rotalas and related genus in the Lythraceae family (Rotala, Nesaea, Ammania, Didiplis).  (See The Barr Report "Rotala Kill Tank") The conclusion was these species did much better with low levels of nutrients in the water column and they suffered (i.e. stagnated, deformed, died) in in tanks with higher levels of nutrients.

After the AGA Convention I decided to try an experiment.  I had substantial experience using high CEC (cation exchange capacity) substrates having started using them in my tanks starting in 2013.  So I decided to try an experiment.  I set up a 45 gallon tall tank (36" x 12" x 24" high) with new high CEC substrate (Safe-T-Sorb) and DIY Osmocote Plus root tabs.  The only things I dosed into the water column was Seachem Flourish Comprehensive (for micro-nutrients) and the calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, potassium sulfate mix I used to increase the hardness of our incredibly soft water (1.0 dKH / 3.0 dGH) we have here in Seattle.  I do use minimal CO2 on that tank.  Below is a picture of the results after five (5) weeks.  Best of all that tank had minimal algae, I usually had to clean the glass once a month.

45 Gallon after 5 weeks

Edited July 13, 2023 by Seattle_Aquarist

[Jeff_F]

On 7/13/2023 at 3:04 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi Jeff,

I've used several dosing methods over the last 15 years including PPS-Pro and EI (Estimative Index).  When doing EI I did (and still do) 50% water changes.  The question as to whether you can overdose a nutrient when dosing EI with an all-in-one fertilizer if you are doing 50% water changes the answer is yes.  Are you dosing too much?  I would not intentionally dose a planted tank to the levels you have been dosing.  If it were me I would try to target a nitrate level no higher than 20 ppm (measured just before water changes).  First I would stop dosing.  Then I would start with doing two (2) 50% water changes over a 2 day period to 'reset' my tank.  Lastly I would drop the dosing level to 2.0 ml @ 3X per week.  I would do that for four (4) weeks at which time the tank should be at equilibrium.  Then I would measure my nitrate (NO3) level just before a water change.  If the level is significantly above 20 ppm I would drop the amount I am dosing.  If the level is significantly below 20 ppm I would increase the amount I am dosing.  If I change the dosing level then I would continue that level for four (4) and again check the nitrate level.

I discontinued EI dosing about 4 years ago.  The problem was that when dosing into the water column, especially with nitrates, I was constantly battling algae growth especially on the glass and hardscape; even with a total photoperiod of five (5) hours per day.  This started me doing more research and thinking about plants in nature and their uptake of nutrients.

What I found that in clean, pristine aquatic environments which are mostly devoid of algae the level of nitrates in the water is very low to non-existent.  Many aquatic plants we use in our aquariums are "marginals" which have adapted to living along the shores of rivers and lakes that experience periods during low water where they live emerged from the water.  Obviously to grow when emerged from the water they must be getting their nutrients from the root zone and not the water column.  So was my thinking wrong regarding feeding my plants?

In 2019 our local club hosted the International Aquatic Gardeners Association Convention here in Seattle.  There were several of the planted aquarium 'rock stars' in attendance including Christel Kasselmann, Dennis Wong, Kara Wade, Cory, and Vin Kutty.  One of the presentations that they gave that I found most interesting was given by Vin Kutty who described the issues he had growing Rotalas and related genus in the Lythraceae family (Rotala, Nesaea, Ammania, Didiplis).  (See The Barr Report "Rotala Kill Tank") The conclusion was these species did much better with low levels of nutrients in the water column and they suffered (i.e. stagnated, deformed, died) in in tanks with higher levels of nutrients.

After the AGA Convention I decided to try an experiment.  I had substantial experience using high CEC (cation exchange capacity) substrates having started using them in my tanks starting in 2013.  So I decided to try an experiment.  I set up a 45 gallon tall tank (36" x 12" x 24" high) with new high CEC substrate (Safe-T-Sorb) and DIY Osmocote Plus root tabs.  The only things I dosed into the water column was Seachem Flourish Comprehensive (for micro-nutrients) and the calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, potassium sulfate mix I used to increase the hardness of our incredibly soft water (1.0 dKH / 3.0 dGH) we have here in Seattle.  I do use minimal CO2 on that tank.  Below is a picture of the results after five (5) weeks.  Best of all that tank had minimal algae, I usually had to clean the glass once a month.

45 Gallon after 5 weeks

 

Hi Rob,

 

    Very interesting information.  I will do a couple of water changes this weekend to reset the tank.   The more I've read and the more youtube videos I've watched I have gotten to the point where I agree that I need to get my nitrates down.  I was realizing this even before my original post.  I've been looking at planting red plants and the information I've seen is that they like less nitrates as well.

  You mentioned Dennis Wong and I've been reading and watching videos on his 2Hr Aquarist website for the past few weeks.  I mentioned in one of my earlier replies that I'm thinking of switching to his APT 3 complete fertilizer and his APT Sky remineralizer for my RO water instead of Seachem Equilibrium.   The APT 3 product has about half the nitrates as does Easy Green.   I'll read the references that  you provided as well.

I live in the Shenandoah Valley in VA, which is a rather rural area, and unfortunately does not have any aquarium clubs in the area.  It would be nice to have a club nearby.   I've done some hydroponic vegetable gardening so I'm familiar with a small continual level of fertilization rather than single larger dose weekly.  That is what moved me in the direction of EI dosing.  The APT 3 Complete product requires about 2 ml daily dosing, which I like, and your calculator puts that at right about 20 ppm nitrates.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Mmiller2001]

On 7/14/2023 at 2:52 PM, Jeff_F said:

I've been looking at planting red plants and the information I've seen is that they like less nitrates as well.

This is mostly untrue. These are maybe 10% of available species and mostly Rotala species that respond to lower nitrates. You will be walking a fine line when limiting nitrates to the degree required to get any noticeable results. You will more than likely starve the other plants in the tank while trying to achieve these low levels of nitrates. Your best bet is to pick a nutrient line and stick with it so you actually learn it. Tweaking it as you go so you can see the effects your changes make.

The best nutrient line is dry fertilizers where you can clone any liquid fertilizer on the market at a tenth of the cost or create your very own mix.

Here’s my tank at 

30ppm NO3

10ppm PO4

35ppm K

.45ppm Fe as proxy 

inert pool filter sand and no root tabs. Photo is a bit over saturated because I don’t know how to make it not do this under my higher kelvin lights.

If you want to get plants really red, upgrade your light.

[Jeff_F]

On 7/14/2023 at 6:02 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

This is mostly untrue. These are maybe 10% of available species and mostly Rotala species that respond to lower nitrates. You will be walking a fine line when limiting nitrates to the degree required to get any noticeable results. You will more than likely starve the other plants in the tank while trying to achieve these low levels of nitrates. Your best bet is to pick a nutrient line and stick with it so you actually learn it. Tweaking it as you go so you can see the effects your changes make.

The best nutrient line is dry fertilizers where you can clone any liquid fertilizer on the market at a tenth of the cost or create your very own mix.

Here’s my tank at 

30ppm NO3

10ppm PO4

35ppm K

.45ppm Fe as proxy 

inert pool filter sand and no root tabs. Photo is a bit over saturated because I don’t know how to make it not do this under my higher kelvin lights.

If you want to get plants really red, upgrade your light.

Very beautiful tank!  Thank you for your comments.  It is good to get a variety of comments/information.  It is interesting to watch all the videos and see some people talk about lean dosing and the next one talk about EI dosing and don't even have to test the water.  Just do large water changes.  Other people do very little water changes.  I have a scientific background so I agree that it is best to minimize changes to multiple things at the same time.  I'm not sure I'm ready for dry fertilizers and mixing my own yet.  I'm still learning about how to keep the plants healthy and grow different types.

You mentioned the ppm of potassium in your tank.  How do you measure that?  I have test kits for nitrates and phosphates but it seems it is very hard to find a potassium test kit.  Can you use a saltwater test kit for fresh water?

[Seattle_Aquarist]

BTW Jeff, you have a very good Aquatic Plant club in your area, Greater Washington Aquatic Plant Association (aka GWAPA / https://gwapa.org/) They have meetings all over the Washington DC area including one recently in Falls Church, VA.  You might want to check them out.  -Roy

[Mmiller2001]

On 7/14/2023 at 6:12 PM, Jeff_F said:

Very beautiful tank!  Thank you for your comments.  It is good to get a variety of comments/information.  It is interesting to watch all the videos and see some people talk about lean dosing and the next one talk about EI dosing and don't even have to test the water.  Just do large water changes.  Other people do very little water changes.  I have a scientific background so I agree that it is best to minimize changes to multiple things at the same time.  I'm not sure I'm ready for dry fertilizers and mixing my own yet.  I'm still learning about how to keep the plants healthy and grow different types.

You mentioned the ppm of potassium in your tank.  How do you measure that?  I have test kits for nitrates and phosphates but it seems it is very hard to find a potassium test kit.  Can you use a saltwater test kit for fresh water?

You can measure exact ppm going in very accurately. And if you front load all your macro nutrients at once, you can maintain a very stable numbers. 

[Jeff_F]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:44 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

BTW Jeff, you have a very good Aquatic Plant club in your area, Greater Washington Aquatic Plant Association (aka GWAPA / https://gwapa.org/) They have meetings all over the Washington DC area including one recently in Falls Church, VA.  You might want to check them out.  -Roy

I live about an hour and a half from Falls Church.  I've seen their website and should probably consider going to at least one of their meetings to see what they are about.  They actually may have people living closer to me that I could meet.

Thanks