40G Breeder tank

[jo1414]

Hi Everyone, I just scored a 40G Breeder with a stand for a phenomenal deal and now I have questions. This is what I have so far.

1: I've got 2 medium media bags of 'seeded' biomedia and I'm working on 2 sponges. Is that enough to put in a 40GB to cycle it or do I need to put some of the substrate? I think I will be transferring most of my plants and decor too, so that's added. How long should I start testing after I put these things in and plant/ fill the tank?

2: I'm going to be using a Coop sponge filter and I saw that Cory uses a Medium for his 40GB. Should I put this in the middle back of the tank or maybe a small one on either side? I'm trying to decide which is going to give me the best water flow. What are your thoughts?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Hi @jo1414, welcome to the forum!

Your tank may be ready even within a couple of weeks with a decent amount of cycled material and 2 sponges that were already running in other tanks. I'd start testing at the end of week one, then again at week two and see what you have. Don't rush it though! 

Sponges don't really make a lot of "flow" really just more aggitation- but I find that using 2 on either end of the tank especially as you work with larger tanks works better for me- HOWEVER, one sponge is fine. You can always add a powerhead to the sponge (ACO sells one) OR a wave maker if you want circulation or will be keeping species that like it! 

[FrozenFins]

Hi @jo1414,

You dont necerssarily need to transfer the substrate over if you have the media, but it certainly wouldnt hurt. if your in a rush and the media is cycled, you could put the fish in right away. I would keep feeding to a low for the first week, and take it from there. However, I would wait a week before placing in fish. Make sure you are 'ghost feeding' the tank to keep the bacteria alive and growing. Simply adding a couple flakes a day, or every other day would work. After a week remove the food, and perhaps do a waterchange to get rid of any amonia.

I've used a medium co-op filter for my 40gb and it worked fine. For awhile I had a meduim sponge filter in one back corner, and a small one in the opposite corner. Flow was fine with both options.

[JettsPapa]

1. Please give more information about this "seeded" media.  If this is filter media from a working, fully stocked tank, and it's been in the tank for a month or longer, I don't see any reason why you can't transfer it over to the new tank and add fish immediately.  After killing off a colony of shrimp when moving them from a 5.5 gallon to a 10 gallon and re-using the media from the 5.5 I swore I'd never use old media again, but others have done so successfully.
2. I doubt if there's enough difference between the two options to matter.

[jo1414]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:52 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Hi @jo1414, welcome to the forum!

Your tank may be ready even within a couple of weeks with a decent amount of cycled material and 2 sponges that were already running in other tanks. I'd start testing at the end of week one, then again at week two and see what you have. Don't rush it though! 

Sponges don't really make a lot of "flow" really just more aggitation- but I find that using 2 on either end of the tank especially as you work with larger tanks works better for me- HOWEVER, one sponge is fine. You can always add a powerhead to the sponge (ACO sells one) OR a wave maker if you want circulation or will be keeping species that like it! 

Thank you. So, the wave maker would make my 'flow'?

On 5/19/2023 at 2:55 PM, FrozenFins said:

Hi @jo1414,

You dont necerssarily need to transfer the substrate over if you have the media, but it certainly wouldnt hurt. if your in a rush and the media is cycled, you could put the fish in right away. I would keep feeding to a low for the first week, and take it from there. However, I would wait a week before placing in fish. Make sure you are 'ghost feeding' the tank to keep the bacteria alive and growing. Simply adding a couple flakes a day, or every other day would work. After a week remove the food, and perhaps do a waterchange to get rid of any amonia.

I've used a medium co-op filter for my 40gb and it worked fine. For awhile I had a meduim sponge filter in one back corner, and a small one in the opposite corner. Flow was fine with both options.

Thank you, I think I will put it in a back corner. Did you feel you had better flow with both sponges?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@jo1414 yes, a wavemaker essentially is an underwater fan that creates/simulates flow of say a river or ocean. They can be adjustable. Most people like to use them with species like Hillstream or those fish that live in highflow areas and you want to recreate a "natural" environment. Sponge filters are great but they're not creating flow just aggitation mostly in the area where they are, which also serves a purpose of course. Hang on back filters can help flow as well as generally they will be sucking water in then back out into the tank, circulating the water more than most sponges would. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[jo1414]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:58 PM, JettsPapa said:

1. Please give more information about this "seeded" media.  If this is filter media from a working, fully stocked tank, and it's been in the tank for a month or longer, I don't see any reason why you can't transfer it over to the new tank and add fish immediately.  After killing off a colony of shrimp when moving them from a 5.5 gallon to a 10 gallon and re-using the media from the 5.5 I swore I'd never use old media again, but others have done so successfully.
2. I doubt if there's enough difference between the two options to matter.

Oh sorry. The media is bio-rings from 2 tanks that have been running for 7 months. The plants and decor I will be using are from one of these tanks. Neither has had any issues with disease or wildly variant test numbers. I will most likely not use the sponge from the 20G long because I want to be able to acclimate and place the fish from the 10G once I get the 40GB up and running.

[FrozenFins]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:00 PM, jo1414 said:

Thank you, I think I will put it in a back corner. Did you feel you had better flow with both sponges?

I certainly did have better flow with both sponge filters. But with just the one sponge filter had adequate flow too. The only reason I had two was so I would have a cycled fitler on the go for emergenices if needed.

[jo1414]

On 5/19/2023 at 3:04 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@jo1414 yes, a wavemaker essentially is an underwater fan that creates/simulates flow of say a river or ocean. They can be adjustable. Most people like to use them with species like Hillstream or those fish that live in highflow areas and you want to recreate a "natural" environment. Sponge filters are great but they're not creating flow just aggitation mostly in the area where they are, which also serves a purpose of course. Hang on back filters can help flow as well as generally they will be sucking water in then back out into the tank, circulating the water more than most sponges would. 

That makes sense. I'll do a little research on the flow for my fish. I did before, but I've since forgotten the details. I do have another question for you, I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly and not making mistakes. I haven't had a large tank or used sponge filters. Since I've only used a HOB filter... my 'biomedia' is now going to be my decor/biorings/plants until it's cycled. Then can I remove the biorings or would you leave it in for a while after fish are added? Once I start adding fish do I have to do a few at a time or can I transfer all/most of the fish at the same time?

On 5/19/2023 at 3:07 PM, FrozenFins said:

I certainly did have better flow with both sponge filters. But with just the one sponge filter had adequate flow too. The only reason I had two was so I would have a cycled fitler on the go for emergenices if needed.

Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I think that's mostly why I was wondering if it would be better to have 2 smalls.

Edited May 19, 2023 by jo1414

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

On 5/19/2023 at 12:09 PM, jo1414 said:

That makes sense. I'll do a little research on the flow for my fish. I did before, but I've since forgotten the details. I do have another question for you, I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly and not making mistakes. I haven't had a large tank or used sponge filters. Since I've only used a HOB filter... my 'biomedia' is now going to be my decor/biorings/plants until it's cycled. Then can I remove the biorings or would you leave it in for a while after fish are added? Once I start adding fish do I have to do a few at a time or can I transfer all/most of the fish at the same time?

You may not need any flow at all, aggitation from the sponge(s) is usually enough for most of what we keep. Squeeze out any media sponges you have in your HOB it's yucky looking but great stuff for a new tank! Whatever you go with, 2 sponges or one will work fine. 

You will be able to move the cycled media out once the BB has spread through the tank (beneficial bacteria). You will get different answers as to how to add fish. IME even with cycled media I'm careful about how much I add. I'd do one species at a time myself or maybe 6 fish, any "aggressive" or territorial species I'd add last. 

If you already have the fish and are just moving tanks, it's always beneficial to move all their decor/hardscape that you can, some used substrate and plants. Likelyhood is you'll be safe moving everyone over at once but I'd keep an eye on it and utillize something like Seachem Prime and Stability (or similar) to keep things from wobbling. 

[jo1414]

On 5/19/2023 at 3:24 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

You may not need any flow at all, aggitation from the sponge(s) is usually enough for most of what we keep. Squeeze out any media sponges you have in your HOB it's yucky looking but great stuff for a new tank! Whatever you go with, 2 sponges or one will work fine. 

You will be able to move the cycled media out once the BB has spread through the tank (beneficial bacteria). You will get different answers as to how to add fish. IME even with cycled media I'm careful about how much I add. I'd do one species at a time myself or maybe 6 fish, any "aggressive" or territorial species I'd add last. 

Thank you so much for all the info! 

[JettsPapa]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:05 PM, jo1414 said:

Oh sorry. The media is bio-rings from 2 tanks that have been running for 7 months. The plants and decor I will be using are from one of these tanks. Neither has had any issues with disease or wildly variant test numbers. I will most likely not use the sponge from the 20G long because I want to be able to acclimate and place the fish from the 10G once I get the 40GB up and running.

Then you should be able to add fish immediately.  How many will depend on how many were in the two tanks the media came from, but I'd start slow in any case.

[Galabar]

Definitely move slowly.  You need to consider that some portion of the biological filtration in the tank that you are moving the bio-media from was coming from things other than the filter(s) (maybe 10% - 20%).  In addition, the bio-load was split between the various filter media.  So, the media you are moving over could have represented just a small(ish) portion of the overall bio-filtration.  Also, you would want to consider what the bio-load was in the source tank.

Ammonia spikes and dead fish seem common when filter media is moved from another tank and a medium to large amount of fish are added.

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Galabar

[jo1414]

On 5/19/2023 at 5:30 PM, Galabar said:

Definitely move slowly.  You need to consider that some portion of the biological filtration in the tank that you are moving the bio-media from was coming from things other than the filter(s) (maybe 10% - 20%).  In addition, the bio-load was split between the various filter media.  So, the media you are moving over could have represented just a small(ish) portion of the overall bio-filtration.  Also, you would want to consider what the bio-load was in the source tank.

Ammonia spikes and dead fish seem common when filter media is moved from another tank and a medium to large amount of fish are added.

 

OK, I love numbers. This helps. Also, I didn't even consider that there's not going to be a bioload in the new tank while it's cycling. Thank you for that.

[Galabar]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:40 PM, jo1414 said:

OK, I love numbers. This helps. Also, I didn't even consider that there's not going to be a bioload in the new tank while it's cycling. Thank you for that.

Without a bio-load, a tank won't cycle.  There has to be some consistent source of ammonia.

Side note: my understanding is that beneficial bacteria can "suspend" for months and quickly come back when ammonia becomes present again (that's why they can put it in bottles).  So, a "cycled" tank might be able to quickly begin servicing fish/ammonia again.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Galabar

[jo1414]

On 5/19/2023 at 5:42 PM, Galabar said:

Without a bio-load, a tank won't cycle.  There has to be some consistent source of ammonia.

Side note: my understanding is that beneficial bacteria can "suspend" for months and quickly come back when ammonia becomes present again (that's why they can put it in bottles).  So, a "cycled" tank might be able to quickly begin servicing fish/ammonia again.

Yeah... my brain didn't process that though. Thank you!