CPD Breeding... because why not?

[TheSwissAquarist]

Have you tried draining the spawning tank in between attempts? I dont seem to get a hatch from my Glowlights or Zebra Danios if the tank has been left to it’s own devices. 
Repeated failures are depressing! 

[jwcarlson]

It's been too long to remember everything that led up to the first successful spawn.  I do know I've done plenty of water changes, but again... it's been too long to recall now.  Today my daughter decided we should get some pencilfish for the apistos, so the tank is occupied for a few weeks for QT.  I'll tear it down and give it a full cleaning and then give the CPDs another whirl.

[jwcarlson]

Ok, it's been a long time.  Female looking huge.  Another female that I raised up seemed big enough to spawn.

Netted the two gals out and one male.  Put them in spawning setup over a square of course sponge with some suswassertang.

Put on a privacy cover so they're more calm (this worked awesome, actually).

 

And got some eggs that as of now look fertile.  Bleach cleaned the laying and holding containers to see if that has contributed in the past.  Here's hoping it goes better!

[jwcarlson]

I think I would have expected to see something hatched this morning, but I did not see anything hatched.  Also not sure the eggs are developing or not.  I thought the eggs hatched after something like a day, but it's been a bit longer now.  

If I don't have some hatched tonight I have no idea what is going on with lack of fertility.  If I don't see any fry, I think I'll probably spawn them again, but in a bigger 10 gallon tank instead of the box.  I cut some plastic canvas to put in the breeder box because I'm sure they are eating at least a few of them.  Additionally, the coarse sponge is too coarse and could easily ensnare these tiny little adults because they really like to burrow in when they start spawning.

Any bright ideas about infertility?  Or perhaps general egg care?  It looked to me like the inner circle inside the egg (embryo?) becomes whitish instead of clear and then almost like it slumps or slouches.  Nothing looked fuzzy or fungus covered at this point, though.  

I have a decent microscope. I think I'll pull an egg and take a look at it tonight if nothing else.  Not sure what I'll see, but worth a shot and maybe I'll learn something.

[jwcarlson]

Some have hatched, more look viable.  I am once again in awe that something this small can survive.

[Guppysnail]

Congratulations 🎉 I’m sending every positive fry thrive vibe I’ve got your way!

[jwcarlson]

Thanks!  It's good to at least know fertilization occured.  That's a good building block.  Thinking maybe the younger female also spawned, some of the eggs were very small.

[jwcarlson]

On 12/4/2023 at 7:10 PM, Guppysnail said:

Congratulations 🎉 I’m sending every positive fry thrive vibe I’ve got your way!

Thanks for the vibes!  Looks like the majority of them have hatched.

 

[jwcarlson]

I have thought so many of these were dead only to have them go zipping off when I poof on them with a pipette.

How can they be this small...

[Schuyler]

Do they still have their yolk sac? Can you tell?

[jwcarlson]

On 12/7/2023 at 12:14 PM, Schuyler said:

Do they still have their yolk sac? Can you tell?

I think so.  They've only been hatched 2-3 days.  My experience last time I had a successful spawn was that it took a week or more before they were free swimming.  One of them was curled up and I thought it was dead.  I sucked it up in a pipette and swished it around and it fell out of the egg shell that I couldn't see and then started break dancing on the bottom of the tray. 😄  And was straightening out even before I left for work.  I do see tiny clear looking extensions in the stomach area which I believe are the yolk sacs.  They're not as round as my very limited experience with other fry.  It's more of yolk tube.  If that makes any sense.  Again... limited experience here.  But top one what "normal" fry look like to me.  Bottom being what the CPDs usually look like to my eye.

[jwcarlson]

They're all free swimming.  I can see their bellies a bit better from above against the white.

[Guppysnail]

I’m excited for your luck this go. 🎉

[jwcarlson]

Setup tonight.  Two nice fat females and a beautiful male.  Hoping this works OK for egg protection as well as not putting the adults at risk of getting stuck in something.  It's a nice tight fit.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

Worked well.  The vast majority of the eggs were under the grate.  If I can get these to hatch I will feel fairly comfortable saying the issue was my cleanliness.

And that opens a host of thoughts, honestly.

The first batch is doing very well, I think I have only noticeablely lost one or two fry.  They all seem to get bellies from the fry food.  They will bite BBS but cannot get pieces off yet. Have SF strain in a hatcher should be ready tomorrow evening, hopefully.  Even if they can only get a nibble it will be worth it.

[Guppysnail]

On 12/13/2023 at 10:00 PM, jwcarlson said:

Have SF strain in a hatcher should be ready tomorrow evening, hopefully.  Even if they can only get a nibble it will be worth it.

I don’t know your setup and heat makes it variable. I use a heater and at 16-18 hours I can harvest a few and they are very tiny. 

[jwcarlson]

On 12/13/2023 at 9:09 PM, Guppysnail said:

I don’t know your setup and heat makes it variable. I use a heater and at 16-18 hours I can harvest a few and they are very tiny. 

I could drop the heater in.  They have been in for 14ish hours now.  Low 60s temp.  I have a little heater that would probably get some hatched when I feed at 530.  I'll give it a shot.

I failed to mention that I also have viable paramecium cultures and am feeding a bit of that before I use fry powder, but I don't have much.  I can't tell if they're eating it, but am assuming they are on account of how big of a pain it is for their "dad".  Haha

Going with the bain marie.

Edited December 14, 2023 by jwcarlson

[TheSwissAquarist]

Bsr of luck with this batch! 

[jwcarlson]

Big nothing from my SF strain brine shrimp eggs.  That's disappointing.  I put a bit of them in with the new ACO batch I set up today to see if they seem to hatch.  I don't see why my setup wouldn't have worked.  

These things grow so slow.  Maybe I am under feeding them, but I am gunshy.

[Schuyler]

On 12/13/2023 at 7:12 PM, jwcarlson said:

I could drop the heater in.  They have been in for 14ish hours now.  Low 60s temp.  I have a little heater that would probably get some hatched when I feed at 530.  I'll give it a shot.

I failed to mention that I also have viable paramecium cultures and am feeding a bit of that before I use fry powder, but I don't have much.  I can't tell if they're eating it, but am assuming they are on account of how big of a pain it is for their "dad".  Haha

Going with the bain marie.

That's an interesting idea. Like tempering chocolate.

Maybe I've missed it but do you keep any microworms or vinegar eels?

I also read in Amazonas Magazine that some people will use a small tank to culture microfauna. They'll put a leaf in there until biofilms develop and then they move it in with the fry for a few days. I haven't had tiny fry since reading that so I haven't personally tried it but it sounds interesting.

[Guppysnail]

They grow very slow. Don’t be discouraged.  I find with the sf eggs I need to really blast the air to get a decent hatch.  I also found by forgetting to plug in my heater until the next day they need to be warm from the start or do not hatch or not well anyway. 79-80 is my sweet spot temp for those and I start with water at least 77. 

[jwcarlson]

My vinegar eels crashed when I ignored them for months.  When I vacuumed the gunk out of the bottom of their fry tray last night, there was a lot of little critters in the bucket.  Assuming it was left over paramecium from my feedings.  Either way, it was down on the bottom and I'm not sure CPDs ever eat off the bottom of the tank even if it's only an inch or so down.  I never witnessed one eating a vinegar eel when I spawned them months ago.  

The leaf thing isn't a bad idea.  I think generally that microscopic life in our tanks is a lot more common than we might normally think.

On 12/15/2023 at 9:58 AM, Guppysnail said:

They grow very slow. Don’t be discouraged.  I find with the sf eggs I need to really blast the air to get a decent hatch.  I also found by forgetting to plug in my heater until the next day they need to be warm from the start or do not hatch or not well anyway. 79-80 is my sweet spot temp for those and I start with water at least 77. 

I wondered that.  Maybe my 63 degree start basically "ruined" this batch.  I'll start a new batch in the bain marie tonight and see how it goes.

[Guppysnail]

On 12/15/2023 at 11:41 AM, jwcarlson said:

My vinegar eels crashed when I ignored them for months.  When I vacuumed the gunk out of the bottom of their fry tray last night, there was a lot of little critters in the bucket.  Assuming it was left over paramecium from my feedings.  Either way, it was down on the bottom and I'm not sure CPDs ever eat off the bottom of the tank even if it's only an inch or so down.  I never witnessed one eating a vinegar eel when I spawned them months ago.  

The leaf thing isn't a bad idea.  I think generally that microscopic life in our tanks is a lot more common than we might normally think.

I wondered that.  Maybe my 63 degree start basically "ruined" this batch.  I'll start a new batch in the bain marie tonight and see how it goes.

Lots of fast bubbles. 

[jwcarlson]

On 12/15/2023 at 10:45 AM, Guppysnail said:

Lots of fast bubbles. 

Small or big ones?  I normally just use rigid tubing, but I can add an air stone if smaller bubbles is the way to go.

 

I didn't see babies this morning, but some of the eggs had hatched, I changed out the methylene blue.  There was a ton of snail poop stuck to these eggs and I removed as much as I could a few times, but it just seems like I couldn't get rid of it.  I saw no fungus, but I'm not happy with the cleanliness of the eggs... hard to separate such small items that have such similar buoyancy.

Edited December 15, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Guppysnail]

On 12/15/2023 at 11:46 AM, jwcarlson said:

Small or big ones?  I normally just use rigid tubing, but I can add an air stone if smaller bubbles is the way to go.

As long as it’s lots and lots of movement. Unlike the coop or even other eggs I’ve used these sink and stick to the bottom and lower sides of my Hatcher