CPD Breeding... because why not?

[jwcarlson]

Figured... why not?

I find that a lot of breeding information lacks some information that someone like me with hard, alkaline water would really like to know.  It's usually broad/general.  "slightly acidic" "neutral" "soft"... Maybe my water is roughly soft compared to what someone else is dealing with.  I saw a discus keeper putting in a massive RO system in because his well water is 1700 TDS.  Which seems almost impossible.

In any event, that's not part of this.

I bought some CPDs from AquaHuna in November, unfortunately of the eight CPDs one was dead on arrival.  One had a swim bladder problem and died a week later and one was a Furcatta Rainbow.  So I ended up with four males and one female.  They were small, but as they grew the female really started to swell up.  So far, all she has done is swollen up in the main tank.  She never shrinks down like she's laying eggs, figuring she was getting harrassed too much in the main tank (even the furcatta will rub up and show interest in her).  So I started taking her out and putting her with a male in the next door QT tank that just has some bladder snails in it.  After a couple days she gets skinny and I move them back for about a week as she bulks up again.  After the first couple times of this I decided why not try to hatch some?  First, I figured my tap water wouldn't work, I tested last night to confirm.  pH of 8.2, KH of 15, GH of 22.  But apparently that's not prohibitive.

The tank as it originally was before they went in.  Some pest snails and a couple of "devil's spike" snails as well as a mix of cherry shrimp.

 

Some of the males:

Female getting a little chunky (in QT tank so washed out):

 

Female thinned out and colored up better (QT tank is bare bottom and no background), but she's also closer to mating here than above:

 

Their main tank now:

 

So after a couple of spawns to keep her from bursting with eggs, I finally noticed some eggs.  Got a hang on breeding box at LFS and decided to pipette out the handful of eggs I saw.  I could see maybe 5-8 of them.  March 10th:

 

My 10 year old daughter helped suck up most of them.  I counted 35 when we were all done, not bad for one female over two days.  March 11:

 

Some had already started to hatch after about a day.  No visible eyes yet, totally white bodies.  So small...

March 12, I added methylene blue after we caught the eggs on the 11th:

Since they were hatching I did a "big" water change in the breeder box, pulled the box outside of the tank, and then hooked up the circulation.

March 13, lots more hatched:

March 14, they've been coloring up quite a bit the last day or so.  Can see eyes now and they have some color on their sides.  Still no one is free swimming, but they do hop around occasionally.  I expect some will be swimming here in the next... day?  I've been trying to keep the water pretty clean with a pipette.  Turned up the current a bit this AM enough to stir up the debris and gently netted the heavy stuff out when I got it up into the water column.  Did a 50% WC last night on the tank they're sharing water with as well.  It's really tough to count them, but I think there's about 25 left.  More than 20 for sure.  Still an egg or two that's bouncing around, but perhaps they're not going to make it, I'll remove them tonight probably as hatching like two days behind your cohort typically isn't a good sign.

March 14th pic:

 

This has been pretty interesting.  I am an absolute sucker for watching things grow.  I have a couple different fry powders (Sera Micron and New Life Spectrum), vinegar eels, and the BBS are on a constant rotation for my apistos, so should have feeding covered.  I'll rig up a tiny siphon to clean the mess out of their breeder box.  I don't mind doing the maintenance to keep the box in good shape.  I like the idea of being able to focus feed, at least until I know how much they can consume.  

Anyway, I'll update periodically.  I'm kind of curious how quickly they grow once they start eating.  I'm currently amazed that any of them survive in the wild considering their early life.

All the credit really goes to this video, honestly.  I've watched it probably 5+ times.  If you've not checked out @Lowells Fish Lab, you're cheating yourself.  Fantastic videos.

 

Also to @Guppysnail for help in my other thread here: 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by jwcarlson

[TheSwissAquarist]

This is really interesting. I can’t wait to see how it pans out! Tempting me to get some…😁

[jwcarlson]

I guess they take a LONG time to go free swimming.  There's a handful of them doing so now.  I have never fed fry powder and unsure how much to do, but I will figure it out... Hopefully. 

There's about 5 swimming quite a bit.  Still a total of something around 25, but they're next to impossible to count!

Edited March 21, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Schuyler]

On 3/15/2023 at 9:12 AM, jwcarlson said:

someone like me with hard, alkaline wate

Well the good news is that's what their native habitat is like in lake Inle 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225930682_Surface_water_quality_and_information_about_the_environment_surrounding_Inle_Lake_in_Myanmar

Congrats on the fry! How long did it take to condition the parents?

Edited March 20, 2023 by Schuyler

[jwcarlson]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:21 PM, Schuyler said:

Well the good news is that's what their native habitat is like in lake Inle 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225930682_Surface_water_quality_and_information_about_the_environment_surrounding_Inle_Lake_in_Myanmar

Congrats on the fry! How long did it take to condition the parents?

Interesting, I have heard lots of conflicting water info! 

They were very small from Aqua Huna in November, been feeding BBS twice a day for about the last two months. 

[jwcarlson]

Quite a few more had lifted off this AM.  I *think* they're eating from the fry powder cloud.  At least they seemed semi-excited and seemed to be making little micro motions like they were biting something.  

[jwcarlson]

Nightly bottom siphon cleaning of the breeder box netted two fry in the bucket to rescue and I didn't even think I got close to any.  Trying to keep it clean so it doesn't foul and kill all the little things.  Everything is up and about free swimming as of this morning.  They're certainly eating the fry powder, I'm doing a mix of Sera Micron and New Life Spectrum Grow Powder.  

Wondering how soon I could start adding some vinegar eels, the eels are so small... but I guess the fry are as well.  I put a tiny bit of them in last night and didn't see anyone going after them, but it's hard to see.  The vinegar eels I'm hoping I can feed and give them something to 'snack' on between feedings of fry powder.  If I were at home all the time, I'd probably feed them 4+ times a day and bottom siphon a couple of times.  But... I work so we'll have to see how these turn out. 🙂  Something to keep them consuming in between would help keep them growing, I'd think.  I suppose the fry powder does circulate quite a while though.  Right now I can feed them around 530 AM, 430 PM, and 8 PM either shortly before or after cleaning the bottom.  I might consider a drip acclimation type setup that would drip some fry powder mixed with tank water every so often throughout the day... or at least I'll think it through and probably get too scared to do something like that worrying it will make matters worse.

Still no idea how much I should be feeding these little things.  I'm seeing their little bellies and the ones who have been free swimming longest do seem to have bigger bellies.  They're mesmerizing me currently, I bet I watched them for 20 minutes pecking away at fry powder in the water column last night.  And during my whirlwind sweep through the fish room this AM I had to catch myself otherwise I'll end up wasting away to nothing down there on my bucket. 😄

All of this will be much easier when they get to BBS eating size in... a few weeks?  

Here's a short video of them. 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

Full bellies!  They're eating a lot more this last day or so.  And can see their intestines full and poop too.  So small lol

[Lowells Fish Lab]

They look great and I'm really enjoying watching this. I also think you have a great attitude toward feeling your way through an unknown. It's really hard to prescribe a perfect amount of anything, you just try things in increments and see what happens. Are they big enough to eat vinegar eels? Let's throw a few in there and see if they go for it. If not, no harm done. To my recollection and based on the latest photos I would say probably they aren't quite big enough. Pretty soon they'll start sprouting the features that make them look like something that might one day be a fish rather than a toothpick with eyes and I'm betting that's when you'll find them taking vinegar eels and then quickly the BBS. 

I would also add that while a planted tank without predators can raise a recreational number of fry for you, at least to the BBS size, there's something special about learning how to do it manually in fairly controlled conditions where you are responsible for every part of the process. Doing that with egg scattering species will make everything else seem trivial. That's been my experience anyway.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Lowells Fish Lab

[jwcarlson]

I appreciate the comment, LFL!  Your YouTube channel is an inspiration and my absolute favorite, your care and dedication shines though!   

I'm excited to get them to the BBS size... perhaps moreso because I'll really be able to tell who is eating plenty.  But the last day or so has made it much easier to see.  About 15-30 minutes after feeding I check in on them and the ones that I'm able to observe have little paunches.  I'm feeding a mix of Sera Micron and New Life Spectrum Grow Powder.  I had both so I figured a mix wouldn't hurt.  

I think I'm going to move a pair into another breeder box and let them spawn again.  I should have done it tonight as she's quite full of eggs again... but kind of ran out of time.  So maybe in the morning before work I'll swing two of them into a bigger one and see how that goes.  Hoping to eliminate the "spend an hour sucking eggs off of plants and algae".  Though that was pretty fun as well.  

I'm starting to have frightening ideas of filling my empty 125 with hand raised CPDs.  🤣

[jwcarlson]

I put female and one male in a breeder box, they seemed really stressed and had not laid yesterday.  Tonight after work she was skinnier, still scared.  But I saw a few eggs so I pulled parents back to their tank.  

Harvested the few eggs... 

 

I count something like 80. 🙃

Edited March 24, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

I did something totally wrong here, some of the eggs started to hatch but nothing is left in the breeder box.  Like... not even debris from the eggs dead/missing hatched fish.  It started almost immediately, but I figured it was just some one off situation.  But as of yesterday there was nothing.  Almost like they just disappeared.  Really strange and I'm not sure what to make of it.  Female is fattening right up so I'll be able to get plenty more eggs almost whenever I want at this point. 

Only difference between the too batches that comes to mind is a different male.  So... that's a possibility I need to keep in mind.  

The existing batch of fry continues to grow and do well.  I lost a couple early on after free swimming stage, they just never really left the bottom much, so assuming some sort of genetic type defects.  I don't know that that type of thing is unexpected.  It didn't' worry me.  I don't have fresh pictures, but they're pretty obviously a bit bigger and they've got tiny tails.  I tried vinegar eels again the other day and didn't notice anyone pursuing the eels right off... but that stuff is so tiny I'm not sure I'd be able to see much anyway.  When I feed them I do see some of them grabbing slightly bigger pieces and kind of trying to bite them.  So they might be getting close.  

Feeding three times per day during the week and on weekends I can do five times pretty easy.  Nightly siphoning of the bottom, tonight I will transfer them to a new box and thoroughly clean the one they've been in.  If I can do that safely, I might end up doing that every night as would probably be faster than the siphon.  Plus I ALWAYS suck up at least one of the little things.  They don't seem worried by the siphon at all, swimming right up to the business end.

[TheSwissAquarist]

Good to see that they’re doing great! How many are there? 

[jwcarlson]

On 3/29/2023 at 6:34 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

Good to see that they’re doing great! How many are there? 

I'll take a video and you can try counting them.  😄

I'm guessing around 20? 

Edit to add: so I think I harvested about 35 eggs, at some point I had about 25 fry after a few got fungus-y looking (and could have been infertile).  There's been at least two that I lost since free swimming age, but they were never really free swimmers.  I'm not sure how many to expect to lose, but that attrition seems... reasonable... I think?  

This second batch with tons of eggs is more perplexing.  The only thing I can think of is that I "handled" them too much when I was separating them from the plants I had in the breeder box and might have been too rough on them at that time?  Otherwise like I said before, it was a different male.

The female is looking quite plump again as of this morning, so I might move to spawn them again here tonight or tomorrow.  Seems like 36-48 hours in the breeder box does the trick.  

I think this time I'll do very limited plants and focus on trying not to handle the eggs at all.

Edited March 29, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Miska]

I cannot wait to see them!!!

[jwcarlson]

On 3/29/2023 at 7:13 AM, Miska said:

I cannot wait to see them!!!

They're still so small!  I didn't have my phone with me last night or I would have taken a picture.  They've got the semblance of little tails, which I've been able to see for awhile.  They're certainly getting around better than they were.  Mine never got up on the sides of their enclosure until just before free swimming.  It's amazing to me how vulnerable they are and for how long.

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 3/29/2023 at 2:18 PM, jwcarlson said:

It's amazing to me how vulnerable they are and for how lon

You’d think that they grow quickly in the wild due to their small size…🤷‍♂️

[jwcarlson]

A couple updated pictures.  Can see some growth. 

 

 

[Miska]

Absolutely amazing!

[Cmike15]

so cute, they probably lay eggs all the time in the wild for plentiful times. I'd guess more hiding spots in the wild but also more predators. 

On 3/29/2023 at 9:26 PM, jwcarlson said:

A couple updated pictures.  Can see some growth. 

 

 

 

[jwcarlson]

It's like most wild animals.  If you need 10 to survive, make 10,000.

[jwcarlson]

Another whirl tomorrow.  I should be home most of the day.

[jwcarlson]

Big development today!  There's at least a few fry munching on baby brine shrimp.  And I was just watching them chew on them which is kind of funny to watch. Hard to see them eat vinegar eels, but their bellies are big and clear so I am guessing they have been eating those too.  Still feeding fry powder, vinegar eels, and now will out in a tiny bit of BBS a couple times a day. 

[jwcarlson]

The breeding pair did their thing pretty early today, it's like they're more comfortable so they get down to business a little faster than they did before.  There's quite a few more not in the picture off to the left.  I'm not sure how many... 40 or 50, I'm thinking.  Female seems a bit stressed after the spawn so even if she still had more to go, I moved them back over.  I'm not planning on handling this set at all other than to take the ones off the moss.  Also not going to do any methylene blue.  There's of course a bit of debris, which I'm not a big fan of.  But I'm worried I screwed up the last batch.  So will let these ride with some water flow through them for a few days.

 

Here's a cruddy video of the fry eating:

 

[jwcarlson]

Well, I had kind of a big die off.  Perhaps over feeding?  I don't measure any ammonia or nitrite or nitrate, but maybe too much 'goop' even with daily vacuuming/cleaning.  So I'm down to about 8 fry.  And two of those don't seem to be eating or not eating much.  So I'm a little perplexed.  The ones that are eating look great and are growing well.  

And the last set of eggs they're hatching and disappearing like the last batch.  I really do not understand that.  Not sure what would eat them.  It's almost like they're dissolving... I don't even see bodies, but I do see egg husks.

 

Got some thinking to do.  The female is probably ready to go again if I wanted her to.  I think I'm going to focus on getting the biggest male which I had netted the first time.  The tank is such a jungle it's tough to do though.  I couldn't even find him last time.  😄

Anyway... here's to learnin'! 🥂