Longterm Diet for Swim Bladder Prone Goldfish?

[Mark303]

BACKGROUND:

I have kept ornamental goldfish for about a year and a half now and always seem to be struggling with swim bladder (especially Orandas.) Many arrived from mail-order with minor cases that seem to slowly get worse overtime. I eventually had to euthanize a couple when it became severe and incurable. The fish I have had have ranged in size from 3.5" butterflies to 6" Orandas. Currently I have 5 fish in a 75 gallon tank. One 4" butterfly, two 4" Ranchus, two 4.5" Orandas. 

During the learning curve of fish keeping my main diet was a pinch (maybe 5-10 pellets per fish) of Saki-Hikari sinking pellets twice a day and peas 3 times a week (~2 peas per fish.) And occasional Tetra dried baby shrimp. This diet seemed fine for many of the fish, but also they have grown very very slowly and I still have gotten swim bladder with several fish. 

For variety I have also tried frozen brine shrimp but seems to dirty the water column a good deal, and a large portion seems to end up in the sponge filter. My fish were never too interested in broccoli, and eat spinach quickly but also seem to spit out alot that I end up having to remove from the tank. 

In attempt to cure / avoid swim bladder I have tried Kenta Gas Release 1.5mm pellets, but seemed a bit large for my fish and didn't seem to have much a different effect on my fish than Hikari pellets. And also unsure if gas release formula is okay for a daily food. 

I have never been clear from information online what a correct amount of food is, so really have no clue if what I have been doing is over or underfeeding. It doesn't help with goldfish always begging for food and my excitement to want to grow my fish to big chunky adults.

 

MY QUESTION(S):

I recently purchased two 4.5" juvenile Orandas that handled shipping great and have been out of quarantine in my display tank a couple weeks. However any Saki-Hikari sinking pellets triggers pretty severe swim bladder with them both. They are also pretty good at out-competing the other fish so has been difficult to make sure I am not overfeeding them with pellets. 

This time I was able to quickly "cure" with fasting and a pea only diet, however when re-introducing pellets I will see the bladder issues start to return later that day. But was able correct agin quickly with a peas meal.

I have just started trying Repashy Supergold gel food within the last 24 hours. So far it seems to not trigger any bladder issues and the fish seem to love it as well.

My main question is, if this continues to be successful can I completely eliminate pellet food from my fishes diet and just feed mainly Repashy and peas?

Anything else I should add into rotation? I thought about trying frozen bloodworms but wasn't sure if they would trigger bladder issues or would dirty the water column too much. 

I have seen people suggest trying a different pellet, however it always seems that Hikari is the most popular option and wasn't sure what other alternative to even try.  

I have read to soak the pellets but was unclear if tap water was safe for this, and mostly just cautious to give the new Orandas any more pellet.

Are Orandas in fact particularly prone to swim bladder? My ranchu and butterfly managed to avoid any issues this whole time. So debating if I just need to give up on Orandas, but was kinda the reason I got into fish keeping. 

 

Sorry for a lengthy post! thanks so much for any advice!! I love fish keeping but this is really becoming a never ending battle. 

 

 

[EVoyager31]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:04 PM, Mark303 said:

BACKGROUND:

I have kept ornamental goldfish for about a year and a half now and always seem to be struggling with swim bladder (especially Orandas.) Many arrived from mail-order with minor cases that seem to slowly get worse overtime. I eventually had to euthanize a couple when it became severe and incurable. The fish I have had have ranged in size from 3.5" butterflies to 6" Orandas. Currently I have 5 fish in a 75 gallon tank. One 4" butterfly, two 4" Ranchus, two 4.5" Orandas. 

During the learning curve of fish keeping my main diet was a pinch (maybe 5-10 pellets per fish) of Saki-Hikari sinking pellets twice a day and peas 3 times a week (~2 peas per fish.) And occasional Tetra dried baby shrimp. This diet seemed fine for many of the fish, but also they have grown very very slowly and I still have gotten swim bladder with several fish. 

For variety I have also tried frozen brine shrimp but seems to dirty the water column a good deal, and a large portion seems to end up in the sponge filter. My fish were never too interested in broccoli, and eat spinach quickly but also seem to spit out alot that I end up having to remove from the tank. 

In attempt to cure / avoid swim bladder I have tried Kenta Gas Release 1.5mm pellets, but seemed a bit large for my fish and didn't seem to have much a different effect on my fish than Hikari pellets. And also unsure if gas release formula is okay for a daily food. 

I have never been clear from information online what a correct amount of food is, so really have no clue if what I have been doing is over or underfeeding. It doesn't help with goldfish always begging for food and my excitement to want to grow my fish to big chunky adults.

 

MY QUESTION(S):

I recently purchased two 4.5" juvenile Orandas that handled shipping great and have been out of quarantine in my display tank a couple weeks. However any Saki-Hikari sinking pellets triggers pretty severe swim bladder with them both. They are also pretty good at out-competing the other fish so has been difficult to make sure I am not overfeeding them with pellets. 

This time I was able to quickly "cure" with fasting and a pea only diet, however when re-introducing pellets I will see the bladder issues start to return later that day. But was able correct agin quickly with a peas meal.

I have just started trying Repashy Supergold gel food within the last 24 hours. So far it seems to not trigger any bladder issues and the fish seem to love it as well.

My main question is, if this continues to be successful can I completely eliminate pellet food from my fishes diet and just feed mainly Repashy and peas?

Anything else I should add into rotation? I thought about trying frozen bloodworms but wasn't sure if they would trigger bladder issues or would dirty the water column too much. 

I have seen people suggest trying a different pellet, however it always seems that Hikari is the most popular option and wasn't sure what other alternative to even try.  

I have read to soak the pellets but was unclear if tap water was safe for this, and mostly just cautious to give the new Orandas any more pellet.

Are Orandas in fact particularly prone to swim bladder? My ranchu and butterfly managed to avoid any issues this whole time. So debating if I just need to give up on Orandas, but was kinda the reason I got into fish keeping. 

 

Sorry for a lengthy post! thanks so much for any advice!! I love fish keeping but this is really becoming a never ending battle. 

 

 

My fancies haven’t had any swim bladder issues but I too feed them different stuff, several same as you. Repashy they like (but don’t love), they wont touch peas for me much, they get some xtreme goldfish flakes and xtreme big fella pellets too.. I’m not sure why but they go NUTS for the big fella pellets.. they get a few different pellets from hikari as well. I do try to avoid ones that sink too quickly so they don’t eat up sand but they typically get to it fast enough anyway.

I don’t soak my pellets or anything.. could it be where you’re ordering them from? Maybe they could be sick when you received them and it progresses? 
 

As for main question.. I’m sure you could technically eliminate pellets all together. For some its just a preference so long as they're getting all they need.

[Lennie]

As far as I know, you may try your best, but they are just genetically in a very bad condition right now that anything you will do will just make the conditions slightly better. You really can't fix it.

On 2/6/2023 at 9:04 PM, Mark303 said:

I love fish keeping but this is really becoming a never ending battle. 

Sadly it is the case especially for breeds that has been kept inbreeding and resulted in lots of body deformities and are genetically just bad at this point. I would highly recommend watching this video, but especially starting from the part I tagged for you. You will get your answers for your swim bladder issues  and why this is not an ending battle. It is usually much much less of a case if the fish is less subejct to inbreeding and develop poor genetics and body deformities over time. Goldfish is mostly not it

Please don't take this as something negative response to your question. I just think it will help you understand stuff very well. I've kept goldfish in the past and I bet most fishkeepers did. It is just good to understand what is going on with them at least, imo.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Lennie

[Torbay]

I returned to fancy goldfish keeping last fall after a long break, so take what I recommend with a grain of salt. Also know there is a TON of online help, so feel free to double check my info. I've done tons of research and have also made mistakes in the past and learned from them.

-Moist food is best: Rapashy gel, homemade gel, bloodworms,  soft-cooked veggies (peas, broccoli, carrots, etc). I feed 3 meals per day and at least 1 meal is veggie.

-Small pellets are best vs. a bigger size. Think of it as swallowing a large hunk of starchy food for a person. Small pellets won't swell as big as a large ones - we all know our goldies are piggies.

-Last but not least, most high quality fancy goldfish are imported from Asian countries and are bred/raised in warmer conditions than most "how to" books recommend. IOW, 62F - 72F water temp is too cool and digestion and metabolism is slower at these temps. The food can sit in the digestive tract and become problematic for the fish. If you watch some of the YouTubers who have beautiful, large fancies, their tanks are at 78F - 80F!

Good luck to you.

[Mark303]

 

On 2/6/2023 at 12:18 PM, Torbay said:

I returned to fancy goldfish keeping last fall after a long break, so take what I recommend with a grain of salt. Also know there is a TON of online help, so feel free to double check my info. I've done tons of research and have also made mistakes in the past and learned from them.

-Moist food is best: Rapashy gel, homemade gel, bloodworms,  soft-cooked veggies (peas, broccoli, carrots, etc). I feed 3 meals per day and at least 1 meal is veggie.

-Small pellets are best vs. a bigger size. Think of it as swallowing a large hunk of starchy food for a person. Small pellets won't swell as big as a large ones - we all know our goldies are piggies.

-Last but not least, most high quality fancy goldfish are imported from Asian countries and are bred/raised in warmer conditions than most "how to" books recommend. IOW, 62F - 72F water temp is too cool and digestion and metabolism is slower at these temps. The food can sit in the digestive tract and become problematic for the fish. If you watch some of the YouTubers who have beautiful, large fancies, their tanks are at 78F - 80F!

Good luck to you.

Thanks Torbay. That advice is pretty in line with the conclusions I am finally coming to. in your experience for my 5 fish how much rapashy / bloodworm / peas would you give per meal?

My fish are all imported from Thailand and the vendor did mention the +78F conditions as well. My tank does seem to stay in the 74-78 range naturally. I have always been hesitant of heaters with the potential issues that brings as well, but am considering it more and more. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Mark303

[Mark303]

On 2/6/2023 at 12:13 PM, Lennie said:

As far as I know, you may try your best, but they are just genetically in a very bad condition right now that anything you will do will just make the conditions slightly better. You really can't fix it.

Sadly it is the case especially for breeds that has been kept inbreeding and resulted in lots of body deformities and are genetically just bad at this point. I would highly recommend watching this video, but especially starting from the part I tagged for you. You will get your answers for your swim bladder issues  and why this is not an ending battle. It is usually much much less of a case if the fish is less subejct to inbreeding and develop poor genetics and body deformities over time. Goldfish is mostly not it

Please don't take this as something negative response to your question. I just think it will help you understand stuff very well. I've kept goldfish in the past and I bet most fishkeepers did. It is just good to understand what is going on with them at least, imo.

Thanks Lennie, I don't take as negative! I have seen this before after researching online. I guess I am just trying to figure out how to move forward after already committing to goldfish. If I lost all my fish to illness or something I would probably consider a different species of fish at this point. But also aware that would probably be a whole new set of issues I would have to learn to navigate haha. Trying to get to a point where I can just enjoy my tank for a while. 

thanks again!

[Mark303]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:55 AM, EVoyager31 said:

My fancies haven’t had any swim bladder issues but I too feed them different stuff, several same as you. Repashy they like (but don’t love), they wont touch peas for me much, they get some xtreme goldfish flakes and xtreme big fella pellets too.. I’m not sure why but they go NUTS for the big fella pellets.. they get a few different pellets from hikari as well. I do try to avoid ones that sink too quickly so they don’t eat up sand but they typically get to it fast enough anyway.

I don’t soak my pellets or anything.. could it be where you’re ordering them from? Maybe they could be sick when you received them and it progresses? 
 

As for main question.. I’m sure you could technically eliminate pellets all together. For some its just a preference so long as they're getting all they need.

Air shipping definitely contributes a good deal I think, but I have next to zero local options. I have ordered from the two most popular fancy goldfish sellers, and seen swim videos of the fish in great shape before shipping and then some have arrived with severe swim bladder I was unable to cure. Both have had great customer service and helped me a great deal. I also only use airfreight shipping at this point to minimize any potential issues. But the fish are still being raised and imported from Thailand which has to be extremely hard on the fish

[Lennie]

On 2/6/2023 at 10:42 PM, Mark303 said:

Thanks Lennie, I don't take as negative! I have seen this before after researching online. I guess I am just trying to figure out how to move forward after already committing to goldfish. If I lost all my fish to illness or something I would probably consider a different species of fish at this point. But also aware that would probably be a whole new set of issues I would have to learn to navigate haha. Trying to get to a point where I can just enjoy my tank for a while. 

Ofcourse! Aiming to provide them the best life as much as possible seems to be the best way no matter what, especially at this point. Our friends here can help with that I believe, as I left goldfish keeping about 15yrs ago. I just wanted to share the video so that you should not blame yourself on that one in case you come across swim bladder issues and many others with goldfish. It is likely that you are doing well, but it is the poor condition of breeding and genetics sadly.

Also I just want to raise some awareness whenever there is a chance. Because somehow, she is normally one of the most well know gold fish youtubers, and probably her most informing video has really low rate of views. I just believe it should reach more people, whether here or somewhere else.

Hope your babies have a great life ahead and don't face any issues whatsoever!

peace,

[Torbay]

Mark303,

It's really hard to tell you exactly how much to feed your 5 fancies. I have a 3" Ryukin, 4" Ranchu and 5" Yuanbao right now. I feed 3 small meals daily and you just have to see how it goes. For mine in one day, I'd do 1 thawed cube of bloodworms in the a.m.  Then midday the same size cube (cut up) of Repashy gel, then 4 cut up peas in the evening.

Don't follow the "give them all they can eat in 2-3 minutes" route. Based on your frequency of swim bladder issues, I'd start feeding HALF the amount of food you've been feeding. I know your fish will be pleading for more, but start with this approach for at least a week. If there's no buoyancy issues, this may be the amount to feed for a month. If your fish start to look underfed, then add a bit more, etc.  I've never seen fancy goldfish that look UNDERfed...only OVERfed, which is the most common cause of swim bladder issues (although not the only one).  They're such cuties and beg so earnestly, I know it's hard to walk away!!  

Edited February 6, 2023 by Torbay

[Val]

You're do a lot of things right, Mark.

I'd second the heater suggestion.  I don't like heating my tank for the same reason you mention -- it's just simpler that way -- but I've heard this a solution on other fora.

Soaking the pellets is a common suggestion.  And I used to do that, but gave it up.  In any event, yes, you can use tap water.

Changing pellets might be beneficial.  I use New Life Spectrum (though I had one series of fish that did not care for that brand) and Omega One.

I've had goldies that devoured broccoli, but my new guys (just had them 3 months) don't care for it.  They like beet leaves, spinach and dill.  You could try cabbage or lettuce, though I know where you're coming from with regards to there just being more junk in the tank after their feed.

And Torbay isn't alone in suggesting the baby pellets, even as your fish grow bigger.  I've heard this for years, and it might be the time that I continue with the smaller food from now on.

[mynameisnobody]

@Mark303 You seem to really be on top of things. This is one of those matters that has no real answer. I have a 110 outdoor stock tank with 9 fancy’s, orandas, ranchu’s, and short tail ryukin. They have a ton of above water plants for decor and filtration. You seem to be feeding fairly ideally, the only thing that remains a mystery are the genetics of the fish. I only purchase mine from 1 online vendor as they specialize in fancies. Because these are such sensitive fish, I have always felt obligated to spend a bit more per fish so that I don’t inherit a severe genetic issue down the road. Now obviously this isn’t bullet proof, but I have been fairly successful. I’m not sure if I can list the vendor here, but you can private message me and I will fill you in. I am in no way affiliated to them or anything actually, I’m just a hobbyist.

I feed my fancies the saki pellets, nice pellets from xtreme, duckweed, any plant clippings, shelled peas, and unsalted green beans. I think you may feed out more veggies, more often than I do, yet I’ve had no issues. 
From my experience, I will never try to save money when it comes to Goldie’s or Rainbow fish. They’re both worth the extra spend to me. (I’m not saying you haven’t done this. It’s just my experience is all.) Good luck