Cycling driving me mad!

[KatieBunky]

Hello from England!

I'm so confused with cycling, I understand the nitrogen cycle & how it works but I fall short when applying it to my tank! It's been up & running since 15th December, I added beneficial bacteria on the day & then added plants on 4th January. Between this time I was testing & getting funky results which is when I looked at the dates on the bottles, 3 years out of date, oops! So I've ignored all of the results & bought a new test kit, these are my parameters now:

 

07/01/2023

Ammonia 1ppm

Nitrite 1ppm

Nitrate 40ppm

50% water change

08/01/2023

Ammonia 0.2ppm

Nitrite 1ppm

Nitrate 40ppm

 

11/01/2023

Ammonia 0.2ppm

Nitrite 1ppm

Nitrate 40ppm

 

I think I screwed up doing the water change but to be honest I really don't know what I'm doing & everything I've learned over the past 12 years seems to have left my brain. Also we have high nitrates in the water, they usually sit at around 40ppm. Any help is appreciated!

[PlaneFishGuy]

You may just need to give a little more time (my most hated part of aquariums) - if you haven't added fish yet you may get some benefit from adding some fish food as if you did have fish to "feed" the bacteria. Your local fish store may also be able to help you out with some used filter media which I think would be better than a bottled solution. 

Some more details about your substrate, filters, tank size, etc. may help folks get you a more specific answer 

[KatieBunky]

Thanks for the reply!

It's a 6ft 155gal running a Fluval FX6, airstone, sand substrate & set to 25°C.

 

I have got an old 50gal that's been set up for years & currently has a bristlenose pleco, synodontis, & 3 kuhli loaches in it. I had wondered about just putting them in the new tank with their current internal filter as well & then monitoring closely but I want to keep the 50gal set up as a quarentine tank for new fish. Could I then put a filter that's not currently in use on the 50gal as there's a lot of bacteria in the substrate & on decor?

 

Picture included of the 155gal 😊

[TOtrees]

On 1/11/2023 at 4:25 PM, KatieBunky said:

Also we have high nitrates in the water, they usually sit at around 40ppm.

When you say you have high nitrates, do you mean your tap/source water is introducing 40ppm? If so, the conversation will have to change direction, substantially. And you can disregard most of what I wrote below. But if not, and you mean your tank is hovering around 40ppm, that's where I'm sort of losing you. 

That amount of nitrate can only (mostly) come from a significant amount of "cycle" bacteria doing their jobs. You wouldn't see that level of nitrates if the both beneficial bacteria types weren't present and working. If you're waiting to see 0 ammonia and nitrite before saying you're cycled, you might not get there. I mean yes they should both be zero, but I almost always get some color on my ammonia tests (to the point that I practically never do them any more, unless I'm testing for HIGH ammonia). The nitrite should be testing at zero, but 1ppm can be neutralized by prime, and honestly getting fish and fish food and fish poop in your tank are going to be what get you over this hump. 

I think you're good to go. Don't introduce too much at once, keep testing for nitrites and if not zero then use Prime or another dechlor/detox. 

If you haven't already, you should get a bottle of drinking water and test it for ammonia, so you have a "known zero" benchmark. If your test shows the same 0.2ppm of ammonia for water that you know has none, you can infer that your tank also has none. 

[jwcarlson]

What's your pH, @KatieBunky?

[KatieBunky]

On 1/11/2023 at 10:05 PM, jwcarlson said:

What's your pH, @KatieBunky?

Hi! It's 8.0

[KatieBunky]

On 1/11/2023 at 10:02 PM, TOtrees said:

When you say you have high nitrates, do you mean your tap/source water is introducing 40ppm? If so, the conversation will have to change direction, substantially. And you can disregard most of what I wrote below. But if not, and you mean your tank is hovering around 40ppm, that's where I'm sort of losing you. 

That amount of nitrate can only (mostly) come from a significant amount of "cycle" bacteria doing their jobs. You wouldn't see that level of nitrates if the both beneficial bacteria types weren't present and working. If you're waiting to see 0 ammonia and nitrite before saying you're cycled, you might not get there. I mean yes they should both be zero, but I almost always get some color on my ammonia tests (to the point that I practically never do them any more, unless I'm testing for HIGH ammonia). The nitrite should be testing at zero, but 1ppm can be neutralized by prime, and honestly getting fish and fish food and fish poop in your tank are going to be what get you over this hump. 

I think you're good to go. Don't introduce too much at once, keep testing for nitrites and if not zero then use Prime or another dechlor/detox. 

If you haven't already, you should get a bottle of drinking water and test it for ammonia, so you have a "known zero" benchmark. If your test shows the same 0.2ppm of ammonia for water that you know has none, you can infer that your tank also has none. 

Well I thought we'd always had high nitrates in the tap water, when I tested it a few years ago they were between 20-40ppm. I've just tested it now because I was doubting myself & it's come out at 10ppm. My 50gal always hovers around 40 & my 155gal seems to now be doing the same.

So do you reckon I can add the fish I've got & keep a close eye on it? I'll pick up a bottle of water tomorrow & test it too

On 1/11/2023 at 10:22 PM, Pepere said:

What do you have for filters in the 50 gallon?

 

maybe give them a good cleaning in a few gallons of tank water and dump that water into your new tank.

 

I would go for filter squeezins over bacteria in a bottle any day…

Hi!

It's a Fluval U4 & it could do with a clean out anyway, perhaps I'll do that tomorrow 

[KatieBunky]

On 1/11/2023 at 10:38 PM, Pepere said:

If you have cannister filters on both, maybe just swap some media between the two filters.

I have a canister on the 155, just an internal on the 50

On 1/11/2023 at 10:38 PM, Pepere said:

If you have cannister filters on both, maybe just swap some media between the two filters.

I have a canister on the 155, just an internal on the 50

[Matt Armstrong]

I am confused by one thing. If there are no fish in the tank how are you getting non-zero Ammonia or Nitrite readings? Are you doing a "fishless" cycle and adding fish food or ammonia directly?

A few things come to mind:

If you have no fish in the tank don't do regular water changes. The levels of Ammonia and Nitrites in the tank now can only help establish the cycle, and won't hurt the plants.

Some plants can use Ammonia directly, acting as competition for the bio-filter, which increases the time it takes for it to get established.

Swapping in media from and established tank is a good idea, as others have suggested. Even vacuuming mulm from another tank and squirting it into this new tank's filter input will help seed that filter. Or take a sponge out of the internal filter from your 50 and squeeze it into the larger tank, near the filter intake.

But, figuring out why Ammonia and Nitrite read non-zero in your tank at all will be most helpful for those trying to help.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/11/2023 at 1:54 PM, KatieBunky said:

First, welcome to the forums.

You have two heaters right next to eachother, you'd want to move that fluval one to the right half of the tank if you can or just run one.
 

On 1/11/2023 at 2:39 PM, KatieBunky said:

I have a canister on the 155, just an internal on the 50

how exactly is it setup.... that would help so we could make sure your media (biological) isn't causing any issues for you.

Tank looks great 🙂

[Schuyler]

On 1/11/2023 at 2:22 PM, Pepere said:

maybe give them a good cleaning in a few gallons of tank water and dump that water into your new tank.

I would go for filter squeezins over bacteria in a bottle any day

Second this! Or third probably...

Seems like people have covered most the important stuff. The only other thing I would ask is what you KH is at. Carbonate is actually part of the process for breaking down ammonia.

[RennjiDK]

On 1/11/2023 at 4:25 PM, KatieBunky said:

Hello from England!

I'm so confused with cycling, I understand the nitrogen cycle & how it works but I fall short when applying it to my tank! It's been up & running since 15th December, I added beneficial bacteria on the day & then added plants on 4th January. Between this time I was testing & getting funky results which is when I looked at the dates on the bottles, 3 years out of date, oops! So I've ignored all of the results & bought a new test kit, these are my parameters now:

 

07/01/2023

Ammonia 1ppm

Nitrite 1ppm

Nitrate 40ppm

50% water change

08/01/2023

Ammonia 0.2ppm

Nitrite 1ppm

Nitrate 40ppm

 

11/01/2023

Ammonia 0.2ppm

Nitrite 1ppm

Nitrate 40ppm

 

I think I screwed up doing the water change but to be honest I really don't know what I'm doing & everything I've learned over the past 12 years seems to have left my brain. Also we have high nitrates in the water, they usually sit at around 40ppm. Any help is appreciated!

It is possible you're stuck, but more likely that your testing method is faulty. How old are your reagents (they do expire)? What is your source water nutrient level (test it)? What is your NH3/4 source? Bottled bacteria are sensitive to storage conditions. You said it was expired, and the UK just had a record heat wave. It's not a stretch to believe that the bottle sat in a warehouse/truck and cooked before you took possession. Not to mention the stabilizers added to the bottles to make them go dormant (which is why they expire in the first place). I'd purchase a fresh bottle for good measure, wait a day or two, and consider yourself cycled.

On 1/12/2023 at 12:51 AM, Schuyler said:

Second this! Or third probably...

Seems like people have covered most the important stuff. The only other thing I would ask is what you KH is at. Carbonate is actually part of the process for breaking down ammonia.

The amount of acid as a limiting factor to prevent nitrification would be hard pressed to replicate outside of a sealed gallon of distilled/deionized water.