Substrate drastically increasing pH

[Zesul]

*Disclaimer this is my first tank ever*

I just set up a 5 gallon planted tank to cycle about a month and a half ago (planning on adding cherry shrimp). I recently discovered after letting my tank just sit for a couple weeks with weekly water changes that my pH levels are very high, about 8.4 to 8.8 using the API master test kit. I scoured the internet for a solution and on the petscord forums we came to the conclusion that it's the substrate I'm using Caribsea eco-complete. Testing it out of the tank it jumped my 7.0 pH tap water to 8.0 after just 12 hours of resting. I would really like to avoid changing out my substrate since my plants are doing well and starting to root and grow nicely. Though recently I'm thinking of taking the substrate out and giving a very thorough cleaning to see if that helps.

Also as a side note as you can see I'm having a crazy algae bloom as with all this pH craziness I'm having a hard time establishing my cycle so the algae has been out of control (I've lowered my fluval nano light to 40% strength at this point).

[Patrick_G]

That’s surprising since Eco-complete is just inert lava rock. That white rock in your scape looks sus to me 😉. You can do a simple test by taking it out, drying it, scratching it a bit and adding a few drops of vinegar. If it bubbles then that’s your culprit. 
 

The Fluval Nano can be quite a lot of light for a 5 gallon. I’d dial it back to 30%, and 6 hours a day until the tank fills in. The hair algae is easy to remove by swirling a toothbrush around. 

I forgot to add that it looks nice, don’t get too discouraged by the algae and cycling problems. I recently set up a 5 gallon and blasted it with way too much light. Now I’m having the same algae problems that you are even though I’ve previously set up several algae free nano tanks. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Patrick_G

[Schuyler]

What are you doing for water changes?

On 12/14/2022 at 3:08 PM, Zesul said:

 Testing it out of the tank it jumped my 7.0 pH tap water to 8.0 after just 12 hours of resting.

What do you mean by this part? You took a handful and put it in a cup of tap water?

I don't see how eco Complete would have that big of an impact.

It's there anything else you add to the tank?

[Zesul]

Would distilled white vinegar work that's what I have on hand and for the plants I have on the rock would I need to remove them. How would I do that safely?

[Patrick_G]

On 12/14/2022 at 4:05 PM, Zesul said:

Would distilled white vinegar work that's what I have on hand and for the plants I have on the rock would I need to remove them. How would I do that safely?

I think you could probably leave them on the rock, they’re pretty tough and won’t be affected if you just take the rock out long enough to test, just don’t let them dry out. 

[Zesul]

Sorry not sure if I'm replying properly first time using this forum. Yeah I took out a small amount of the substrate to test and my tap water is about 7.0 pH rested and then tested it after 12 hours. I'm going to test the rocks in the tank using the vinegar method someone else suggested.

[KittenFishMom]

@Zesul Take the rock out and dab a clean spot that won't show on the bottom of the rock with a cotton swab or folded paper towel dipped in vinegar and see if it foams. then wipe that spot with water and put the rock back in the tank.

Have swab/paper towel, and a cap of vinegar and second set with water on the counter/table before you get the rock out. The plants will never know they were out of the tank.

[Zesul]

On 12/14/2022 at 7:09 PM, Patrick_G said:

I think you could probably leave them on the rock, they’re pretty tough and won’t be affected if you just take the rock out long enough to test, just don’t let them dry out.

I didn't get any bubbles from the rock so I don't think its the culprit. Another thing to add is I wasn't sure if I needed to wash the substrate cuz it came wet so i put it straight in the tank ( not the smartest thing to do looking back at it). So would taking it out and washing it help?

[Patrick_G]

On 12/14/2022 at 4:36 PM, Zesul said:

Another thing to add is I wasn't sure if I needed to wash the substrate cuz it came wet so i put it straight in the tank ( not the smartest thing to do looking back at it). So would taking it out and washing it help?

With Eco-complete you’re supposed to add it to the tank wet. The company claims the liquid has some beneficial properties. 

[Zesul]

These are the levels I'm getting right now and I did a 50% water change a couple days ago

[Schuyler]

Maybe try your experiment with the cups again but this time do one cup that's just tap water as a control.

Try testing hardness too. I know water pH can change as it's left exposed to air for a while.

I wonder if it's just something about your water rather than something in your tank.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Schuyler

[Zesul]

On 12/14/2022 at 8:04 PM, Schuyler said:

I wonder if it's just something about your water rather than something in your tank.

I have well water and it is softened.

[evonner]

Pull the test tube just a bit away from the white backing with light piercing through the tube. The color looks wonky but I think it's 8.2 ppm.

FYI -My tap water is 7.2, 24 hrs after I do a water change it goes up to 8.0, then at 48 hrs and beyond it maxs at 8.2. I have no idea why but it is what it is and I stock accordingly. And just to add one more thing, I let my tap water sit out for 24 hrs before I test it.

[KittenFishMom]

@Zesul Patrick_G did say to dry the rock and scratch it, so you may want to repeat the test with drying and scratching or scraping the clean spot to test before testing. Use an old serrated butter knife or a us quarter ($0.25) because it has the ridges on the edge, just to rough up the rock and get though any coating or oxidation and get in to the real rock. then dab with vinegar.

High pH is basic/alkaline so think of things like baking soda or calcium or limestone or cement or coral or bone or seashell. Those all cause high pH. If you put in coral or shells or a chunk of sidewalk cement, they could be doing it.

[Zesul]

Yeah think I'm just going to go some more testing with my tap water and then the substrates effect on it. So I'll probably update in a day or two to show the results.

 

On 12/14/2022 at 9:07 PM, KittenFishMom said:

High pH is basic/alkaline so think of things like baking soda or calcium or limestone or cement or coral or bone or seashell. Those all cause high pH. If you put in coral or shells or a chunk of sidewalk cement, they could be doing it.

The only other thing I have in the tank besides the rocks, driftwood, plants, and eco complete is a small amount of Imagitarium Black Aquarium Sand to give some height to certain parts of the tank. So maybe that is causing some issues?

[jwcarlson]

There's a lot going on here and I'm not sure I'm fully following.  My personal opinion is that you should use your straight water that has not been through your softener (if you're talking about the units that use salt).  They're actually ion exchange units, not actually "softening" the water as you'd typically use the term in an aquarium sense.  

 

Take a sample of straight tap water and get a quart of it or so, get your pH reading.  Put and airstone in and aerate the water overnight and test the pH again.  My tap water starts at 7.0 and ages to 8.2.  By nature of the dissolved carbon dioxide in our tap water.  That's step one, in my opinion.  Your water could easily swing 1 or more pH just by nature of it sitting.  So that variable needs to be understood before you start worrying about substrate and what-not.

Additionally... the pH test can be pretty difficult to read, unfortunately.

[KittenFishMom]

Also, having just gone through this and currently setting up an RO system. Hardness is often measured as a total of calcium and magnesium in the water.  Our well water has zero calcium, and a ton of magnesium. So the water softener folks test for calcium and say our water is completely soft, but the test strip I was use test for magnesium and said it was unmeasurably hard. I had to cut the well water with an equal amount of distilled water to get the API chemical test to give me a result for magnesium and KH. Our well water also has a bad amount of ammonia in it coming out of the well. (we are at the shallow swamp end of the lake, which is teaming with wildlife and ages of decaying water plants under the mud. 

I have a 5 gallon bucket with an active sponge filter from one of my tanks and a heater in it. I top it off and ghost feed the bucket every night and use water from it the next day. We hope to have the 7 stage RO system up and running very soon.  It was hard to find a place in this tiny cottage from 1936 where everything was accessible and the gauges and monitors were readable. We wanted it at the kitchen sink for drinking water, but had to put it in with the furnace and laundry. You have to walk through the bathroom to get to it. Also had to have an unused internal chimney removed. Nothing is ever as simple as it looks in the videos. Oh Well. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/14/2022 at 3:56 PM, Patrick_G said:

That white rock in your scape looks sus to me 😉. You can do a simple test by taking it out, drying it, scratching it a bit and adding a few drops of vinegar. If it bubbles then that’s your culprit. 

Very good catch.  It's definitely not the substrate from all we can tell!
 

On 12/14/2022 at 6:43 PM, jwcarlson said:

Take a sample of straight tap water and get a quart of it or so, get your pH reading.  Put and airstone in and aerate the water overnight and test the pH again.  My tap water starts at 7.0 and ages to 8.2.  By nature of the dissolved carbon dioxide in our tap water.  That's step one, in my opinion.  Your water could easily swing 1 or more pH just by nature of it sitting.  So that variable needs to be understood before you start worrying about substrate and what-not.

Very true.  I was going to start with this.  This is where I start myself when there is any PH issue at all.  We need to figure out what off-gasses and then go from there.  Your water might just be very unstable out of the tap!

On 12/14/2022 at 7:14 PM, KittenFishMom said:

Also, having just gone through this and currently setting up an RO system. Hardness is often measured as a total of calcium and magnesium in the water.  Our well water has zero calcium, and a ton of magnesium. So the water softener folks test for calcium and say our water is completely soft, but the test strip I was use test for magnesium and said it was unmeasurably hard. I had to cut the well water with an equal amount of distilled water to get the API chemical test to give me a result for magnesium and KH. Our well water also has a bad amount of ammonia in it coming out of the well. (we are at the shallow swamp end of the lake, which is teaming with wildlife and ages of decaying water plants under the mud. 

😂 That's hilarious.  Fooled by a simple test strip.  Reminds me of the guy who was adding junk to a water sample and going "see, see what you're drinking!" which was meme'd on a magic show and they put tadpoles and all kinds of things in "water tests"
 

 

[Zesul]

Hey everyone sorry it took a couple days to get results cuz I had to go out and get another air pump and air stone. After resting the water with the air stone for about a day or so the pH jumped up to about the same levels I'm seeing in the tank so about 8.2-8.4. Now I'm just trying to figure out where to go from here I don't have the money for an getting an RO system or getting gallons of distilled water every time I want to do a water. I was wondering if a pH down chemical might be an option not the biggest fan of the idea but not sure what else to do.

[Patrick_G]

I’m thinking of two ways to solve your problem. I’m sure there are lots of other good ideas too. 

1. Initial water change of 2 gallons with straight store bought distilled or RO water. That will drop your ph to the low-mid 7s. After that you’ll do a weekly water change 1 gallon with 1/2 tap water and 1/2 distilled or RO. That should keep you I. The low to mid 7s. You’ll additionally add some botanicals like Catappa leaves to help naturally lower the PH, commercial substrate like Fluval Stratum will help too. Using this method you’ll only need 2 gallons of distilled water a month. 

2. Use a product like Seachem Acid buffer to lower the PH. You’ll have to tinker to see how much you need to add to get to your target PH. You’ll mix up as much as practical and keep that on hand for weekly water changes. Do all your water changes with that water, mixed exactly the same each time and you should be good. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Patrick_G

[Zesul]

On 12/17/2022 at 3:47 PM, Patrick_G said:

2. Use a product like Seachem Acid buffer to lower the PH. You’ll have to tinker to see how much you need to add to get to your target PH. You’ll mix up as much as practical and keep that on hand for weekly water changes. Do all your water changes with that water, mixed exactly the same each time and you should be good. 

For this method would leaving the mixed up water in a closed home depot bucket be ok?

[Patrick_G]

On 12/17/2022 at 1:38 PM, Zesul said:

For this method would leaving the mixed up water in a closed home depot bucket be ok?

Yup, that’s more or less what I was thinking. 

[Zesul]

On 12/17/2022 at 4:45 PM, Patrick_G said:

Yup, that’s more or less what I was thinking. 

Would there be any long term issues with using a chemical to change pH especially since this is going to be a shrimp only tank and I know they can be very sensitive. 

[Niz]

Driftwood would be another option, it will release tannins to help bring the ph down. Overtime though it could possibly raise back up once all the tannins are gone (could be a months for this to happen). You could use catappa leaves as someone else mentioned, these could turn the water a little brown though. I think it looks cool in the right aquarium, it is a personal opinion though. Both Driftwood and catappa used together would be my suggestions. 

I have eco complete in a 90 gallon and have to increase my pH. My tap is right around 7 but it drops to 6.4-6.6 overnight if I don't add anything. I do not think the substrate is the issue. 

[jwcarlson]

My water's pH is 8.4 and I have more shrimp than I know what to do with.   But the water is also very hard.

I personally do not battle pH or mess around with RO or anything like that.  If I ever breed discus, maybe.  But just for community tanks or shrimp... Nah.  My discus are in straight, aged tap water.