Stunted betta fry

[Twigflinger]

Morning guys.  We are driving to relatives so finally had some time to get on here and look for help.  I have some betta fry about 5 months old that are lengthwise about the size of a dime.  Everything I find on YouTube suggests they should be fully grown by now.  I believe I underestimated the effects of GIH greatly….   As newborns, I used deans technique with the tray on top of my sump with a continual drip from above to circulate water.  I fed them mainly BBS and then started adding in crushed flake food.  After a while I stopped feeding BBS and now just do crushed new life spectrum flake.  After a while of slow growth, I moved them to their own 5 gallon bucket with with sponge filter.  I have an airline dripping water 24/7 from from a 32 gal brute trash can.  When I started this I was figuring about 5 gal drip rate per day.  Last week I increased this quite a bit because I thought it may help flush out gih.  Heat from original aquarium was 77.  Their current setup is now 84 degrees.  I feed them 2-3 times per day.  I have them set up in an unused tub in our bathroom but my wife’s patience is beginning to wear thin (I have been putting off remodeling bathroom until the bettas are grown).  Can GIH cause permanent stunting? Could it be that I crossed 2 bettas that have messed up genetics?  Here is a pic of mom and dad.  Unfortunately I did not get a pic of the babies before we left.  Really appreciate any input I can get.  Happy thanksgiving!

[itsfoxtail]

First of all; beautiful pair! That is an absolutely stunning female!

Bettas are all very unique and grow at their own rate, though the length of a dime after 5 months does sound a lot smaller than normal. The people who get their bettas to adult size in three months do a sort of "power growth" method of high protein high temps with lots of small feedings a day that just skyrockets growth rate. The average/normal hobbyist won't be able to get them to grow quite that fast unless they have a pretty impressive setup. I find mine are about full-grown anywhere between 3-7 months with a couple shooting off as the biggest, and a couple always ending up as the runts.

GIH is real and it is definitely detrimental but just from what you've said my very first instinct is that they simply haven't had enough room to grow. Giving them a water volume of the 5 gallons plus the 32 gallons is a great way to dilute the GIH but probably didn't give them enough "growing room" to swim, as 5 gallons isn't very big dimensionally. I believe like most fish bettas thrive when given as much room as possible as soon as possible in their lives. That being said, bettas once they hit the age where they begin to sort of develop a pecking order/get their aggressiveness on/establish their own territories (I'd say starting anywhere from 2-4 months) really should be separated from one another. Not only does this provide them with GIH-free water, it also keeps their stress level down and lets them establish their own "territory". They grow like little weeds when they get their own food and own space with exercise seeing others for only a bit each day. Jarring isn't a fun task and not only does it make you feel sort of guilty for keeping them in such a small space (though you know it's only temporary so they can go to good homes) but it takes an immense amount of time for water changes and such. This is typically what deters people from breeding bettas.

So TLDR: I'd say they probably needed more swimming room when growing up and then their own space to grow the rest of the way! Wow, that was long-winded; sorry! 

I suppose I'd also ask where you sourced your pair from? If it is from a place like Petco or the like, they do typically have poor genetics and it definitely could be a contributing factor.

Silver lining is: even bettas that seem stunted have the potential to grow when given their own space. I had a little lady that was the runt of my last litter. She was itty bitty compared to everyone else. I finally pulled her out and put her in her own little gallon cube, thinking I'd maybe just set up a tank to keep her since I'd become attached and lo and behold she began growing.... and growing.... and growing; she even developed some very pretty colors that I wasn't expecting! I'm sure not all bettas are capable of this but there's always hope for these little guys; they're resilient!

Edit: I see now you said you have them in an unused tub and realize you meant bathtub (lol) so they probably have lots of room now, which is great! I'd say varying diet a little, and most definitely giving them some frozen brine shrimp would be the first step, see if you see any change, and then maybe tackle the task of separating them to see how growth rates begin increasing! This would just be what I would do in your situation; I've bred bettas a handful of times but I'm by no means a professional so I do hope some others can chime in with their experience!

Edited November 25, 2022 by itsfoxtail
Bathtub full of fish is some awesome dedication

[Twigflinger]

 Not long winded at all itsfoxtail.  This is exactly what I needed!  So it sounds like 2 issues of them seeing too many of their brothers and sisters which may be slowing them down as well as not enough space per individual.  This is a tough issue to rectify for me without a lot of room.  I should have been more clear but they are not in a bathtub directly but the 5 gallon bucket and trash can are sitting in there.  The trash can is just a reservoir that continually feeds water to the bucket so I only need to prime and refill the trash can about once a week.  A while back I had the idea of using a large shallow plastic container of some sort divided up with a grid pattern of plastic.  This would allow me to heat (should I raise temperature higher than 84?) and water change 1 container while having the effect of cupping.  If they feel like they are alone will they stop or slow down releaseing GIH? Lemme know what you think about this.  I have not been able to find frozen bbs in my area, is there something else I can feed?  For about 6 weeks I was supplementing the flakes with Instant brine shrimp.  However I still had about half a jar left when it expired so I didn’t get more.  I just ordered some micro worms but they seem a lot smaller than I was hoping and may have to feed a ton of them to make any difference.  The female is indeed beautiful!  She is named Midnight and my wife named the male Papa FT(Fluffy Tails)😊

[Twigflinger]

Another thought…. Do you use live plants?  The tank setup they were in to start was heavily planted.  The bucket they are in now does not have plants.  With the continuous water changes it would be tough for me to keep up with nutrients and I figured dying plants would do more harm than good.  Out of the tap my water is about 50 tds.

[itsfoxtail]

On 11/25/2022 at 8:20 AM, Twigflinger said:

 Not long winded at all itsfoxtail.  This is exactly what I needed!  So it sounds like 2 issues of them seeing too many of their brothers and sisters which may be slowing them down as well as not enough space per individual.  This is a tough issue to rectify for me without a lot of room.  I should have been more clear but they are not in a bathtub directly but the 5 gallon bucket and trash can are sitting in there.  The trash can is just a reservoir that continually feeds water to the bucket so I only need to prime and refill the trash can about once a week.  A while back I had the idea of using a large shallow plastic container of some sort divided up with a grid pattern of plastic.  This would allow me to heat (should I raise temperature higher than 84?) and water change 1 container while having the effect of cupping.  If they feel like they are alone will they stop or slow down releaseing GIH? Lemme know what you think about this.  I have not been able to find frozen bbs in my area, is there something else I can feed?  For about 6 weeks I was supplementing the flakes with Instant brine shrimp.  However I still had about half a jar left when it expired so I didn’t get more.  I just ordered some micro worms but they seem a lot smaller than I was hoping and may have to feed a ton of them to make any difference.  The female is indeed beautiful!  She is named Midnight and my wife named the male Papa FT(Fluffy Tails)😊

I see; sorry I misunderstood about the bathtub/tub (lol). I'd for sure say the size is the issue at hand then. I'd say the shallow container with dividers would be a great alternative to cupping if you don't have the room! It sounds like a daunting setup, especially since the plastic would probably have to be pretty opaque for them to not see one another constantly and I'm not sure how water flow would work but you sound very capable in rigging up reservoir/water changing setups so I don't doubt you could succeed somehow!

I wouldn't recommend raising any higher than 84. Their metabolism is likely as high as you're going to want or need it so a higher temp could just stress them out and have an adverse affect. Personally I've never kept mine hotter than 82 but that's really just me and how hot I can get my tanks in our chilly house haha!

On whether or not they'd stop releasing the GIH if they felt they were alone... I'm not entirely sure. I remember reading a paper a while back on male and female bettas being kept in the same water but unable to see one another. They could still tell by the hormones in the water that another fish was present or something of the like. I'm not sure if the same would be true for GIH. It most certainly wouldn't hurt to try your idea, though! 

Oh! I meant frozen adult brine shrimp as opposed to baby brines! Some of the bettas might be too small to eat it right away but they're great predators and will pick up on it eventually. I worried about the size until I watched a fry eat a shrimp that was quite literally the same size he was and I haven't been as worried since. I don't know where you're located but I'm not sure I've really ever been to a big box store, let alone LFS who doesn't sell the frozen adult brine shrimp (though they could be out of stock). Live daphnia or scuds are sort of superfoods but take quite a bit of effort to keep. If you could find the freeze-dried Hikari bloodworms they're actually quite small and the bettas may take to those quickly, just be careful not to feed too much as they sort of puff up in the water and can do the same in their stomachs.

Spectacular names! Why is Papa Fluffy Tails so accurate 😭 I love it!

On 11/25/2022 at 8:37 AM, Twigflinger said:

Another thought…. Do you use live plants?  The tank setup they were in to start was heavily planted.  The bucket they are in now does not have plants.  With the continuous water changes it would be tough for me to keep up with nutrients and I figured dying plants would do more harm than good.  Out of the tap my water is about 50 tds.

I do use live plants. I really only have frogbit or floating plants in the tanks when they are really young as it provides good shelter/cleans the water/doesn't mess up the water either, but when I move them to the grow-out tank it's pretty heavily planted. Of course when I jar them I really just have a stone or two and catappa leaves. 

If you get yourself some hardy plants I don't think they'll too much mind the water changes, especially if you throw in a pump of fertilizer here and there. Wow only 50 tds?! I'm a little jealous I won't lie, haha! The plants would probably do best with a fertilizer pump or two then. 

I don't know what sort of space you're working with or what tanks you have and the like but I'll just throw out there what I do (so feel free to ignore this at will): I also keep them in a 5 gallon bucket (or tank if I'm feeling fancy) as they grow up with frequent water changes. Then when they hit... oh I don't know probably a half inch or so, I move them out to a 40 breeder that is WAY over-filtered. It also has a pretty decent sized pothos plant that absolutely destroys the nitrates in the water. The space is what matters the most at this stage imho. Then we get into jarring blah blah blah. I'd even suggest using your shallow plastic container idea and just letting them swim free in it until you get your grid system figured out if you decide to go that way. 

 

[Twigflinger]

Thank you itsfoxtail.  I have much to think about now.  I will update you with my progress 🙂

[Twigflinger]

What is your water change routine when you move them to the 40 gallon?

[Twigflinger]

Growth inhibiting hormone.  From the little I know it is a hormone released when betta fry are in close proximity.  Too much of it will slow down their growth.  I guess in the wild it would prevent them growing big to fast resulting in less food for all of them.

[itsfoxtail]

On 11/27/2022 at 8:00 AM, Twigflinger said:

What is your water change routine when you move them to the 40 gallon?

Simply because it's so over-filtered and heavily planted I stick to just 2 50% water changes a week. If I'm extremely busy 1 water change I think works just fine but I'd rather be safe than sorry, haha!

On 11/27/2022 at 9:20 AM, Pepere said:

I am curious as to what GIH stands for and what it is all about.

 

First time I see it and brief internet search is not terribly illuminating.

On 11/27/2022 at 1:01 PM, Twigflinger said:

Growth inhibiting hormone.  From the little I know it is a hormone released when betta fry are in close proximity.  Too much of it will slow down their growth.  I guess in the wild it would prevent them growing big to fast resulting in less food for all of them.

Yup! From what I've gathered and seen I believe the larger/stronger bettas release the most of it. I think it's actually from a competition standpoint. They don't want their future potential competition both for food and mating to grow as fast and large as they do. This way they'll have optimal choice of territory and mates. In captivity however it kind of backfires since I think it can affect themselves in such small water volumes. I separate my males first when cupping and notice that the females tend to grow at a normal rate together even when there are a lot in the same tank. Don't think it's been said whether males produce more but my hypothesis is that they do. 🤷‍♀️

[Twigflinger]

Here is the ghetto setup I have them in currently.  How much space should I give each of them when I cup them out?  I decided to modify my original plan with the plastic grid in a plastic tub which would have been communal water.  Now my plan is to cut up the clear corrugated plastic Corry uses for aquarium tops and hot glue pieces together to make little boxes.  These will be grouped together in a larger tub that houses the heater.  Water will be dripped in to each box from above using airline tubing from a larger manifold.  This way each fish is in its own pristine water and no hormones from other fish. The larger tub will have bulkhead fitting or something similar which will drain water to the exterior.   I am hoping to move this all out to the garage which is detached and will be cold.  I’m hoping 2 aquarium coop 100 watt heaters will do the trick.  Just set up a tub with 1 heater out there and will see how it does as temperatures drop this week.  Not moving any fish out there until I am sure all parts of the tub will be temperature stable.

[itsfoxtail]

On 11/28/2022 at 2:08 PM, Twigflinger said:

Here is the ghetto setup I have them in currently.  How much space should I give each of them when I cup them out?  I decided to modify my original plan with the plastic grid in a plastic tub which would have been communal water.  Now my plan is to cut up the clear corrugated plastic Corry uses for aquarium tops and hot glue pieces together to make little boxes.  These will be grouped together in a larger tub that houses the heater.  Water will be dripped in to each box from above using airline tubing from a larger manifold.  This way each fish is in its own pristine water and no hormones from other fish. The larger tub will have bulkhead fitting or something similar which will drain water to the exterior.   I am hoping to move this all out to the garage which is detached and will be cold.  I’m hoping 2 aquarium coop 100 watt heaters will do the trick.  Just set up a tub with 1 heater out there and will see how it does as temperatures drop this week.  Not moving any fish out there until I am sure all parts of the tub will be temperature stable

Wow! You're definitely going the extra mile for this! Kudos! There's no way I would be able to rig something that impressive! 

With constant water changes the size would in theory be up to you and your space. Big enough for them to be able to swim around a little bit at least, but they won't have to worry about clean water/water changes so no need to go big enough to be able to skip days (I go 2 gal so I can do every other day once they're on their own. I'm lazy). 

If you want to go crazy, I'd say add some catappa (or oak) leaves to your system pre-drip so they can get some of the tannins. Helps with color and overall health of the fish. Definitely not necessary but could possibly help! 

They're so cute! How many do you think you have? Looking forward to seeing the progress on the setup!

Oh, and there was a bathtub involved after all! I knew it! 😂

[Hobbit]

Wow, that’s a lot of fry!! Congratulations!

Just a note if you out them in with live plants—be careful not to over fertilize. I think I stunted my platy fry’s growth with a buildup of sulfur, which is in most off-the-shelf fertilizers. And if you give your fry some snail pals, you won’t need to worry about a buildup of dead plant material because the snails will take care of it for you. 🙂

[Twigflinger]

Just did a count and I have 27.  I do have some snails in the sump and can move in with them :).  Having issues with the heater though so that has help up progress.  Now that I know hoe many there are I can start mathing out how many cubicles I need to make.

[Twigflinger]

1st tub insulated on bottom and sides!  Workbench has been leveled and reinforced to support weight.  Just need to drain the other tub and insulate that one.

[itsfoxtail]

On 12/4/2022 at 3:12 PM, Twigflinger said:

Just did a count and I have 27.  I do have some snails in the sump and can move in with them :).  Having issues with the heater though so that has help up progress.  Now that I know hoe many there are I can start mathing out how many cubicles I need to make.

That's a great number! A good amount but not so many it'll be unfeasible to raise!

On 12/7/2022 at 12:17 PM, Twigflinger said:

1st tub insulated on bottom and sides!  Workbench has been leveled and reinforced to support weight.  Just need to drain the other tub and insulate that one.

Let us know how it affects the temp! Are you in an un-heated area and just using a heater? If so I'm curious what your outdoor temps are like if you're able to keep it at a good temp! Also where did you get that sick tub?

[Twigflinger]

Yea I am doing this in a stand alone garage with no heat.  I think it was down to 40F the other night and maintained temp but that was without insulation.  I have the other tub complete just need to figure out how to connect them.  I am considering trying the No drill vacuume tube setup. The sides are angled so I can’t do bulkhead fittings straight between them.  Here is link for the tote.  https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-14-Gal-Tough-Storage-Tote-in-Black-with-Yellow-Lid-SW111/314468098?MERCH=REC-_-pip_alternatives-_-311021551-_-314468098-_-N&&mtc=SEM-BF-CDP-GGL-D59S-023_007_ORGANIZATION-NA-NA-NA-DSA-2998358-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-NA&cm_mmc=SEM-BF-CDP-GGL-D59S-023_007_ORGANIZATION-NA-NA-NA-DSA-2998358-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-NA-71700000101062026-58700008077109942-39700073445997544&gbraid=0AAAAADq61UeLjPtmHiTsTVpUI7S5hk1bl&gbraid=0AAAAADq61UeLjPtmHiTsTVpUI7S5hk1bl&gclid=CjwKCAiAs8acBhA1EiwAgRFdw1F8Is8FUXKuSQkG-gkGWAGBIPlgkeDXydXqNQGAXFz9UJg99PtC7xoCae4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
 

The insulation has been sitting in my garage for years.  It is installed shiny side facing in.

[Twigflinger]

Think I found a solution 🙂  1/2” electrical male adapters going into 3/4 tubing.  The male adapters will go inside the tub.  If I can find some pro gs or gaskets I will use those inside as well.  Otherwise I will cut my own from gasket material shown in the background.  If water makes it back through the threads I will put Vaseline on them.  Not super worried about a few drips.  Will be pretty happy if this works.  Bulkhead fittings are $16!  

 

Almost bought this thingy.  Has everything needed and semi flexible but was too long for my liking.  Only about $6.

[itsfoxtail]

Any update? How is the DIY connecting tube holding up? 

I'm genuinely impressed it can hold temp even with such cold outer temps! That's awesome! Oh, and thanks for the link; I may or may not be tucking that one away for summer tubbing season...

[Twigflinger]

Sorry I haven’t made a ton of progress but I am just about done building the cubicles.  Wifey has agreed that moving them to the garage would be risky especially considering it’s supposed to get down to about 10 F on Friday.  Hoping to get everything set up and running over holiday break.  I ended up using this cheaper white corrugated plastic for the cubicles instead and of the clear because of cost.  Trying to hot glue them all was tedious so I ended up tacking them with hot glue then running a bead of silicone 1 over the seams on the outside.  I found this really awesome calculator for layout of all the little pieces.  https://www.cutlistoptimizer.com/  It helped a ton with figuring out how to cut everything on the table saw and allowed me to change dimensions on the fly to make sure everything fit in 2 sheets of material.  Also since we spoke previously I mixed up some DIY Repashy with half free dried brine shrimp,  half frozen bloodworms diced up,  a few drops of vitamins and some gelatin powder.  I need to experiment in getting it to float more though.. I give them a square in the morning so they can pick at it for a while and keep them full longer before I get home from work then a couple more feedings of the new life flakes.  Also trying to Increase water change amount but the airline tubing gets clogged with gunk growing in it and slows down over time.  The little guys are growing though!  Just can’t wait to get them in their new apartments!

[itsfoxtail]

@Twigflinger Oh good, that's so good to hear! That food sounds honestly like some next level stuff and I wouldn't doubt at all that that's a huge reason why they're growing for you! Also those little cubicles look so professional! I honestly wouldn't have guessed you made them yourself! So are you planning on keeping them inside in the bathroom in tubs for growout or are you just waiting for this insanely cold spell to pass? I was planning on having some shrimp overwintering in our garage and boy am I glad I decided against that. We're down to -5 at the moment. Brr. I hope everyone with garage tubs was prepared for this!

[AllFishNoBrakes]

-12 where I’m at, should get down to -15 by the time the night is over. Super glad all my tanks are inside and staying at a stable temperature and we still have power. 

[Twigflinger]

Well I am finally done! 

 

 

 

Weather has warmed up and not so worried any more.  I found that I needed a heater in the water supply trash can as it very quickly cooled down the cubicles when dripping.  I fill it with hose and it takes about a day with an Aquarium Coop 100 watt heater to warm up to 82.  Each tote has a heater as well with a small pump to circulate water between totes.  Depending on the drip rate,  trash can needs to be refilled about every other day.  We will see if ammonia becomes an issue as they grow larger.  Each cubicle has an overflow with the blue sponge and the tote on the right has an overflow which leads outside the garage.  Bottom vid is my favorite out of the batch as its the only white one.  Very happy with the outcome however a reservoir for water change water larger than 32 gallons would be nice.

[itsfoxtail]

Wow! I am legitimately amazed by this setup! Not only does it look amazing but it honestly is crazy efficient! They all have plants, I see some substrate; these bettas are definitely living the life now! I'm very curious as to how quickly they begin to grow for you! What are you feeding them now? 

The little white and blue one is really pretty! Looks like it has the marble gene; do any of the others look marbled? It's always fun to see the the outliers a pair throws!