Will erythromycin harm the nitrifying bacteria in tank??

[HannaB]

I am seeking advice on how to deal with fin rot. To start, I had bought 2 juvenile angel fish back in February. They looked healthy as far as I could tell when I bought them. However, only about a week and a half later, one started to develop fin rot (fins started splaying and then disappearing). It then spread to my other angel fish. I bought Api "Melafix," and immediately started treating tank according to dosage (& took out carbon filter). It worked like a charm, and within a week, my fish had significantly improved, and fins were growing back. Another week or so later though, and they were regressing again. To make a long story short, this started a vicious cycle for the next several months where I would treat the tank with some kind of herbal medication, the fish would improve, and then the fin rot would return. I have now tried Melafix, Top Fin bacterial & fungal fix, Maracyn Oxy (by Fritz), and even aquarium salt, according to the aquarium coop instructions (I used 1 TBSP per 2 gallons water). Over the past few months, my fish have only gotten worse, they don't even respond to the herbal treatments now (bacterial resistance?), and the disease has spread to all 3 of my silver dollars. They also look like they have a bit of white around their gills (fungus?). Maracyn Oxy didn't help with that either. 

So I guess I now have to resort to traditional antibiotics..... however, does anyone know whether I should be worried about erythromycin (in the Mardel Maracyn medication) harming the nitrifying bacteria in the tank (I have a biowheel filter; tank has been up and running with fish for about 4-5 years). Should I closely monitor the pH & ammonia levels daily? If so, which test kit would you recommend? And do you think erythromycin alone should be sufficient, or other meds? 

Also, to clarify regarding the dosing of the Mardel Maracyn: my tank is 38 gallons, and the instructions say to use "one packet per 10 gallons." The video also mentions only dosing once for the entire week, but the online page doesn't give further instructions on this. So should I probably just go with dosing 4 packets at once for the whole tank, and wait a week?? Should I do another water change and dose again to be sure that the bacteria are eradicated? (I really don't want to see the same pattern again of the fish getting better after treatment then getting worse, but I also want to minimize the damage to the beneficial bacteria). 

Any help would be greatly appreciated!! 

Edited November 8, 2022 by HannaB

[Flumpweesel]

pI can't speak for that treatment as it's not available to me. However antibiotics are going to to damage your cycle so yes you'll need to up your testing to daily and water change accordingly.

Good luck.

I would say that liquid tests are probably the best value for frequent use.

I've got fish through fin rot by just keeping the water super clean but it's a long process and if you can get there antibiotics that's probably better all round. You can catch you cycle back up later.

With the fin rot coming back there is an underlying issue in there, for me it was ammonia burn anyway (long story long hard lesson) but it maybe worth testing for ammonia before you start the treatment to make sure the water is good to begin with.

 

[Colu]

Fin rot is usually caused by poor water quality or damage to the fins if your not solving the root cause it will keep reoccurring as most cases of fin rot are caused by gram negative bacteria I would treat with kanaplex or maracyn2 

[nabokovfan87]

Welcome to the forums.  I just read the title and wanted to mention that in my experience it won't harm your filtration cycle.  That being said, if you have a filter that is having issues, or if you have something that uses cartridges and you replace them (and there is no other media) then that might point to a reason for some of the issues your experiencing.

 

On 11/8/2022 at 1:34 PM, HannaB said:

So I guess I now have to resort to traditional antibiotics..... however, does anyone know whether I should be worried about erythromycin (in the Mardel Maracyn medication) harming the nitrifying bacteria in the tank (I have a biowheel filter; tank has been up and running with fish for about 4-5 years). Should I closely monitor the pH & ammonia levels daily? If so, which test kit would you recommend? And do you think erythromycin alone should be sufficient, or other meds? 

 Whenever you run into a sick fish there's a few things you always want to do.
A.  If possible add aquarium salt if applicable (there are some diseases where you don't want to add salt)
B.  Test everything, if need be daily of 2x a day.
C.  Add an airstone
D.  Add applicable meds or ask what would be best.

That being said, photos and everything would help as well as those test parameters for the tank in question.  Understanding the setup would help so we can pin point any potential items to review on your side 🙂 .

I think it's safe to say you probably should run an antibacterial med but at this point I don't recommend erythromycin.  As Colu mentioned above this is usually from a gram negative bacteria and the common meds for treatment will be neoplex or kanaplex.  Because of everything going on I would also suggest adding Ich-X just to counter any fungal issues.

 

On 11/8/2022 at 1:34 PM, HannaB said:

Also, to clarify regarding the dosing of the Mardel Maracyn: my tank is 38 gallons, and the instructions say to use "one packet per 10 gallons." The video also mentions only dosing once for the entire week, but the online page doesn't give further instructions on this. So should I probably just go with dosing 4 packets at once for the whole tank, and wait a week?? Should I do another water change and dose again to be sure that the bacteria are eradicated? (I really don't want to see the same pattern again of the fish getting better after treatment then getting worse, but I also want to minimize the damage to the beneficial bacteria). 

If you haven't seen it, please be sure to check out this video to understand a bit about methodology for treating fish.  There is also a blog article specific to fin rot as well as a variety of videos on youtube from many channels that are trusted.  The confusion between directions is because of preventative (one treatment) vs. an active illness (follow the directions on the package itself) for quarantine use.  You don't want to simply treat preventative, right now you have an active disease and would follow the directions on whatever med you are using.

As far as directions for Maracyn:
 

Quote

Add the contents of one packet per 10 gallons of water and repeat every 24 hours for 5 days. Repeat this 5 day treatment only once if needed. 

Day 1: Add the contents of one packet per 10 gallons of water.
Day 2: Add one packet per 10 gallons of water.
Day 3: Add one packet per 10 gallons of water.
Day 4: Add one packet per 10 gallons of water.
Day 5: Add one packet per 10 gallons of water.
Day 6: Repeat this five-day treatment if symptoms improve, but have not completely disappeared. If no improvement has occurred, try our Maracyn® Two and/or Maracyn® Oxy treatments.

To your question on tank size. I would just treat it as a 40G tank.  If you're concerned at all just reserve a small amount of the 4th packet.  Understandably, this is a ton of meds for one treatment.  Hopefully that helps!

Edited November 9, 2022 by nabokovfan87
clarification

[HannaB]

Thank you! 

I think I will order the Maracyn 2 and definitely a comprehensive test kit; however, on the Fritz website, it says that it will most likely inhibit the nitrifying bacteria..... they do sell a product though called "Fritz Complete" that apparently detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates, and can be added to the tank during treatment..... they also have another product (FritzZyme 7) that adds nitrifying bacteria to the tank to help out a bit.... any experience or thoughts on these products? 

Also, do you think it would still be worth it to use both meds (Maracyn I & II) at once? A couple of my silver dollars have white around their gills (one is worse than the other)..... I thought it was fungus at first, but now I'm not sure. 

Regarding the fungal treatment with Ich-X..... I do have a similar treatment at home that I've used successfully before to treat Ich, though never for fungal infections (API: Super Ich Cure; main ingredient is benzaldehyde green.... same as malachite green?). Do you think this could also work for fungal infections? 

 

I have attached some pictures below of my fish: 

 

Angelfish 1: 

 

Angelfish 2: (she's struggling the most right now..... hides in the corner all day; she only went further down b/c I was taking a picture lol)

 

It was hard to get a pic of these guys, but their tail fins are also very short/splayed; you can kind of see the reflection of the white on the front silver dollar

.

.

On 11/9/2022 at 2:47 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Welcome to the forums.  I just read the title and wanted to mention that in my experience it won't harm your filtration cycle.  That being said, if you have a filter that is having issues, or if you have something that uses cartridges and you replace them (and there is no other media) then that might point to a reason for some of the issues your experiencing.

 

 Whenever you run into a sick fish there's a few things you always want to do.
A.  If possible add aquarium salt if applicable (there are some diseases where you don't want to add salt)
B.  Test everything, if need be daily of 2x a day.
C.  Add an airstone
D.  Add applicable meds or ask what would be best.

That being said, photos and everything would help as well as those test parameters for the tank in question.  Understanding the setup would help so we can pin point any potential items to review on your side 🙂 .

I think it's safe to say you probably should run an antibacterial med but at this point I don't recommend erythromycin.  As Colu mentioned above this is usually from a gram negative bacteria and the common meds for treatment will be neoplex or kanaplex.  Because of everything going on I would also suggest adding Ich-X just to counter any fungal issues.

 

If you haven't seen it, please be sure to check out this video to understand a bit about methodology for treating fish.  There is also a blog article specific to fin rot as well as a variety of videos on youtube from many channels that are trusted.  The confusion between directions is because of preventative (one treatment) vs. an active illness (follow the directions on the package itself) for quarantine use.  You don't want to simply treat preventative, right now you have an active disease and would follow the directions on whatever med you are using.

As far as directions for Maracyn:
 

To your question on tank size. I would just treat it as a 40G tank.  If you're concerned at all just reserve a small amount of the 4th packet.  Understandably, this is a ton of meds for one treatment.  Hopefully that helps!

Meant to quote this before I posted my reply.

[nabokovfan87]

It looks like some of the photos didn't post.  Can you try to edit / fix them so we can see?

@HannaB unfortunately it happens sometimes.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/10/2022 at 1:31 PM, HannaB said:

they do sell a product though called "Fritz Complete" that apparently detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates, and can be added to the tank during treatment..... they also have another product (FritzZyme 7) that adds nitrifying bacteria to the tank to help out a bit.... any experience or thoughts on these products? 

Fritz complete is your common water dechlorinator, similar to seachem prime.
FritzZyme 7 is "bacteria in a bottle" and common to something like seachem stability. 

I would go ahead and treat meds normally, and then use those products to recover, if you needed to.

[HannaB]

On 11/10/2022 at 5:36 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

It looks like some of the photos didn't post.  Can you try to edit / fix them so we can see?

@HannaB unfortunately it happens sometimes.

 

[nabokovfan87]

Are you treating currently with any meds?

I'll tag @Colui

A lot of the questions asked are the type of thing where one med mentioned might not do anything against what you have going on.

[Colu]

Looking at the pictures it looks like a more severe bacterial infection that requires a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment I would definitely do a course of kanaplex and Jungle fungus clear fizz tab's containing nitrofurazone following this treatment @HannaB

[HannaB]

None yet, although I just ordered Maracyn 2 yesterday..... supposed to arrive tomorrow or Sunday; now though I'm trying to decide between Maracyn 2 and Kanaplex, given Colu's response. 

On 11/11/2022 at 12:01 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Are you treating currently with any meds?

I'll tag @Colui

A lot of the questions asked are the type of thing where one med mentioned might not do anything against what you have going on.

None yet, although I just ordered Maracyn 2 yesterday..... supposed to arrive tomorrow or Sunday; now though I'm trying to decide between Maracyn 2 and Kanaplex, given Colu's response. 

On 11/11/2022 at 12:23 PM, Colu said:

Looking at the pictures it looks like a more severe bacterial infection that requires a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment I would definitely do a course of kanaplex and Jungle fungus clear fizz tab's containing nitrofurazone following this treatment @HannaB

Thank you. I actually just ordered Maracyn 2 online, it's supposed to arrive tomorrow or Sunday..... although I will order the Kanaplex if it will more likely help. Is Kanaplex even more of a broad-spectrum than Maracyn 2? Also (I didn't even see this yesterday), but I see that some people have said that Maracyn 2 only works in soft water..... is this true?? (This info. wasn't on their website). I'm pretty sure I have hard water, given the mineral deposits that are frequently left behind around my tank. 

Also, if I do end up using Maracyn 2, can it be used with the Jungle Fungus? 

[nabokovfan87]

you should be fine to use maracyn, maracyn 2, or kanaplex (either one) with jungle fungus.  If there's a concern you would just stagger treatments. But, given the severity here time is of the essence and you treat with both (fungal+antibacterial) due to secondary diseases appearing up.  Something like when you heal a bacterial issue, then you have an open would that results in fungal issues. 

Jungle Fizz Tabs:

Maracyn/API Erythromycin:

Maracyn 2:

Kanaplex:

 Colu has tested, used, and helped many people here with the Kanaplex + Jungle fizz tabs, so that's definitely the safest route to go right now.  As this thing is fighting the meds you may find that others work to finish it off and help the fish fully recover.  It's good you have them on hand, but I totally understand the frustration of not having the "right one" so to speak.

Edited November 11, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Colu]

Minocycline the active ingredient in maracyn2 is easily absorbed by calcium making it a poor choice of treatment for tanks with high GH in this cases it's better to use kanamycin the active ingredient in kanaplex and and Jungle fungus clear fizz tab's containing nitrofurazone together @HannaB 

[HannaB]

On 11/11/2022 at 7:18 PM, Colu said:

Minocycline the active ingredient in maracyn2 is easily absorbed by calcium making it a poor choice of treatment for tanks with high GH in this cases it's better to use kanamycin the active ingredient in kanaplex and and Jungle fungus clear fizz tab's containing nitrofurazone together @HannaB 

Hi again, 

I received my order of kanaplex & Jungle fungus today, and am about to add the first dose of each to the tank. I just wanted to confirm though, that it is fine to add the Jungle Fungus tabs (full dose) each day of treatment (5-day period)? I just wanted to make sure, because the package directions say to "add 1 tab to each 10 gallons of aquarium water," but then "second dose may be added in 4 days after a 25% water change." ...... Are there any possible adverse effects to adding JF several days in a row? 

[Colu]

On 11/17/2022 at 12:13 AM, HannaB said:

Hi again, 

I received my order of kanaplex & Jungle fungus today, and am about to add the first dose of each to the tank. I just wanted to confirm though, that it is fine to add the Jungle Fungus tabs (full dose) each day of treatment (5-day period)? I just wanted to make sure, because the package directions say to "add 1 tab to each 10 gallons of aquarium water," but then "second dose may be added in 4 days after a 25% water change." ...... Are there any possible adverse effects to adding JF several days in a row? 

The amount of active ingredient in jungle fungus clear fizz tab's  is under dosed  so it safe to dose every day without any side effects a lot of people on this forum have successfully used this treatment plan with the no adverse effects 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Colu
Typo

[HannaB]

On 11/16/2022 at 9:30 PM, Colu said:

The amount of active ingredient in jungle fungus clear fizz tab's  is under dosed  so it safe to dose every day without any side effects a lot of people on this forum have successfully used this treatment plan with the no adverse effects 

Hi, 

First off, I wanted to share the results of testing the water in my fish tank (for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and pH); I tested the water on Mon, 11/14, a couple days before I started the treatment; it had been nearly 3 weeks since I did the last water change. I will post my interpretation of results below, as well as actual pictures (of each tube/color)

Results were:

pH (I feel that this one was the most subjective): 7.0 - 7.2 .....?? 

nitrite - 0 (was blue)

ammonia - 0 (was yellow)

nitrate - 30 - 40 ppm (hard to tell exactly, but color was definitely a deep orange color)

So, it seems that even after nearly 3 weeks, my ammonia and nitrite levels were fine. However, do you think that the nitrate level could be an issue? (As far as lowering the water quality and making my fish more susceptible to fin rot in the first place?) 

 

Update: this is the treatment protocol I did last week: 

Tues 11/15: 25% WC

Wed 11/16: Took out carbon filter; turned off UV light; added 4 tablets of Jungle Fungus (I have a 38 gallon tank; directions say 1 tab/ 10 gallons); 7 1/2 scoops of Kanaplex (directions say 1 measure to every 5 gallons)

Thurs 11/17: 4 tabs JF

Fri 11/18: 25% WC; 4 tabs JF; 7 1/2 scoops Kanaplex

Sat 11/19: 4 tabs JF

Sun 11/20: no treatment (I didn't have time to do water change, so I just left it as is)

Mon 11/21: 25% WC; 4 tabs JF; 7 1/2 scoops Kanaplex

Tues 11/22: 4 tabs JF

Wed 11/23: 25% WC; no further treatment; however, I left carbon filter out (I went away for Thanksgiving, so didn't get back till Sunday; I had neighbor look after fish, but mostly just feeding, no treatment). 

Mon 11/28 (today): put carbon filter back in tank

 

So to summarize.... at this point, I'm not sure how to move forward. Unfortunately, I don't really see any visible improvement in my fish (and didn't before I left for vacation either). All of the silver dollars still have the whiteness around their mouths (or maybe it's just rot/missing scales, can't really tell if it's fungus or not), and I don't see any fin regrowth in silvers or angels (neither dorsal, tails, ventral, etc.). The only possible improvement is my one angelfish might have some slight regrowth on its dorsal fin, based on comparison to the picture I took right before starting treatment (it's kind of hard to tell though). So I guess my question is, do you think I should do a second round of the treatment (Kanaplex + JF), or try something else? Or just wait? On one hand, I didn't expect them to make a full recovery after only a few weeks, let alone a few days; however, even earlier this year when I had first treated the tank with Melafix (the first thing I tried), my angelfish's ventral fins at least showed significant regrowth even after just a few days.... of course, I know this time, they are much worse-off than before, so maybe the treatment is helping, and it will just take more time? I just thought I would at least see *some* improvement by now. 

Pictures of fish after treatment are below: 

[Colu]

I would do a water change to lower level of nitrates  at high levels they effect fish's immune system slowing down the healing process looking at the pictures I would do another course of kanaplex and Jungle fungus clear fizz tab's the white around the mouth is mouth rot often  associated with columnaris it often takes two full courses of treatment to treat columnaris give an update after the second round of treatment  @HannaB

Edited November 28, 2022 by Colu

[HannaB]

On 11/28/2022 at 11:40 AM, Colu said:

I would do a water change to lower level of nitrates  at high levels they effect fish's immune system slowing down the healing process looking at the pictures I would do another course of kanaplex and Jungle fungus clear fizz tab's the white around the is mouth rot often  associated with columnaris it often takes two full courses of treatment to treat columnaris give an update after the second round of treatment  @HannaB

Okay, thanks. I just ordered some more Jungle Fungus, it should arrive Friday.... do you think I should leave the carbon filter in for the next few days until I can resume treatment, or would it be better to let the residual meds linger in there until next round? (I just added filter back this morning) 

[Colu]

On 11/28/2022 at 5:30 PM, HannaB said:

Okay, thanks. I just ordered some more Jungle Fungus, it should arrive Friday.... do you think I should leave the carbon filter in for the next few days until I can resume treatment, or would it be better to let the residual meds linger in there until next round? (I just added filter back this morning) 

I would add the carbon back in the remove any remaining medication before starting your second round of treatment 

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/28/2022 at 8:00 AM, HannaB said:

The only possible improvement is my one angelfish might have some slight regrowth on its dorsal fin, based on comparison to the picture I took right before starting treatment (it's kind of hard to tell though). So I guess my question is, do you think I should do a second round of the treatment (Kanaplex + JF), or try something else?

Minimum for me was 2 treatments of kanaplex

Aquarium Salt is also helpful, not sure if you have that around. 1/2 cup per 10G is the dose I use.

Right now, I would be doing a big water change today (no meds in the tank) and then repeat daily 50% WCs until you see nitrates low consistently (5 ppm or lower, then monitor them daily).  If you're seeing nitrates spike +10 or +20 ppm PER DAY then there's a bigger issue at play here.  That's what needs to be figured out.  The fish shouldn't have issues from clean water and fresh water, increased water changes. 

It will help them recover, and help you determine if this is all due to overstocking issues, overfeeding issues, potentially a dead fish somewhere, or something else releasing ammonia and causing the constant high nitrates.

Edited November 30, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[HannaB]

Hi everyone, 

Update:

I completed the following course of treatment (2nd round); unfortunately, I've been extremely busy these past couple of weeks and didn't stick to the WC schedule perfectly, but tried to follow it as closely as possible:

Thurs. Dec. 1st: took carbon filter out; 7 1/2 scoops Kanaplex; 4 Jungle Fungus tabs

Fri. Dec. 2nd: No treatment

Sat. Dec. 3rd: 4 JB tabs

Sun. Dec. 4th: no treatment

Mon. Dec. 5th: 40% WC; 4 JB tabs; 7 1/2 scoops KP; also tested water again (see details below)

Tues. Dec. 6th: 4 JF tabs

Wed. Dec. 7th: No treatment

Thurs. Dec. 8th: 25% WC; 4 JF tabs; 7 1/2 scoops KP 

Mon. Dec. 12th: 30% WC; put filter back in 

 

Water test results: (Dec. 5th):

I tested again for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates before doing the 40% water change; it had been 12 days since the last water change: 

Nitrites: zero

Nitrates: color was much better this time; more of a pale orange; I'm guessing level was around 10 ppm according to chart

Ammonia: color was alarming this time (light green instead of clear yellow like before); I also tested the next day (Dec. 6th), again after the water change from the previous day, and it was the EXACT same color..... no visible difference at all. This made me wonder if perhaps the color is being altered from components in the Jungle Fungus?? 

 

Fish appearance: (pics below):

Luckily, it turns out that my one angel (striped/ black & white) did indeed have some fin regrowth.... since then, she's improved a lot; a huge part of dorsal fin has regrown, and her tailfin has slowly been growing back as well (although it still will take a while to regrow to 100% I'm guessing). Her ventral fins have also grown a lot..... although oddly, the left one started to regress a bit again about a week ago, and now it seems to be either the same length, or slightly longer..... 

My other angelfish (the yellow one in pics) has shown some improvement too (mainly ventral fins), but it's strange that she hasn't had near the improvement as the other one, despite the other one being far worse off initially. 

As for the silver dollars, I honestly don't know if they've improved at all (maybe a little bit on one of them?? It's hard to tell).... two of them still have the whiteness around their upper parts, and a lot of their fins are still frayed and/or are very short. 

 

And so.... I'm curious to know what everyone's suggestions for me are now? Do you think any other antibiotics are necessary? Maybe adding aquarium salt would help in healing?? 

 

[HannaB]

On 11/30/2022 at 6:48 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Minimum for me was 2 treatments of kanaplex

Aquarium Salt is also helpful, not sure if you have that around. 1/2 cup per 10G is the dose I use.

Right now, I would be doing a big water change today (no meds in the tank) and then repeat daily 50% WCs until you see nitrates low consistently (5 ppm or lower, then monitor them daily).  If you're seeing nitrates spike +10 or +20 ppm PER DAY then there's a bigger issue at play here.  That's what needs to be figured out.  The fish shouldn't have issues from clean water and fresh water, increased water changes. 

It will help them recover, and help you determine if this is all due to overstocking issues, overfeeding issues, potentially a dead fish somewhere, or something else releasing ammonia and causing the constant high nitrates.

Hi again, 

I posted an update above 🙂 

@nabokovfan87 @Colu

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/15/2022 at 12:50 PM, HannaB said:

I tested again for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates before doing the 40% water change; it had been 12 days since the last water change: 

Nitrites: zero

Nitrates: color was much better this time; more of a pale orange; I'm guessing level was around 10 ppm according to chart

Ammonia: color was alarming this time (light green instead of clear yellow like before); I also tested the next day (Dec. 6th), again after the water change from the previous day, and it was the EXACT same color..... no visible difference at all. This made me wonder if perhaps the color is being altered from components in the Jungle Fungus?? 

Meds alter the viscosity of water. Adding that into the equation we need to also realize that a lot of ammonia comes from fish respiration.

Meaning, you very likely need to improve oxygenation. Salt helps with this, but I would start by adding an additional air stone.

Ammonia being high isn't great. Nitrite being high isn't great either. Both of those typically result in some form of burn on the fish. Salt helps to prevent this. 

Right now we need to get things in check. Likely this means add air, and let's review filtration to make sure it's sufficient. Whatever is going on I lean towards your tank being cycled, but just overstocked due to the size and number of silver dollars.

Lastly, until both nitrite and ammonia are safe I would be doing water changes every 24 hours. I usually do 50% water changes, but 30-50% daily should be sufficient.  For the sake of it, please verify the tap isn't adding ammonia (usually shows up when there is chloramines in the tap as well)

Sidenote. Colu posted elsewhere about feeling under the weather. It might take time for a reply.

 

Edit: I think you have the marineland 38G bowfront kit? Please show how the filter box is setup. Likely some improvements we can do to expand bioload performance and give the tank a better time processing the load.

[nabokovfan87]

Have you noticed any fin nipping on the silver dollars towards the angels?

[Colu]

What I would do is keep the salt at one tablespoon for 2 gallons for the next couple of weeks and monitor them very closely for any signs of fin regrowth