Apistogramma Cacatuoides Breeding Advice

[Oftensniped]

Hello all who read this! I have a 55 gallon aquarium and currently have it stocked with two female Apisto Cacatuodies, some Rainbowfish, tetras, and some Otos. I am wanting to get another female or two, but the biggest question have knowing they are species aggressive especially the males, would it be possible to put two males in there as well or would it be a warzone between the two males? I also have several caves(pre-made and naturally made ones as well) already in there and quite a lot of rocks/wood for sight blocks if that helps any. Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read and answer this!

[TheSwissAquarist]

@tolstoy21is the one to ask on this.

I managed to breed one batch myself thanks to his advice!

[anewbie]

On 10/11/2022 at 12:16 AM, Oftensniped said:

Hello all who read this! I have a 55 gallon aquarium and currently have it stocked with two female Apisto Cacatuodies, some Rainbowfish, tetras, and some Otos. I am wanting to get another female or two, but the biggest question have knowing they are species aggressive especially the males, would it be possible to put two males in there as well or would it be a warzone between the two males? I also have several caves(pre-made and naturally made ones as well) already in there and quite a lot of rocks/wood for sight blocks if that helps any. Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read and answer this!

A couple of things; first as to number of males and females - that heavily depend on how the aquarium is laid out and temp. of fish. 

 

I would NOT add any more females at this point in time - i would add a single male and then see how it goes. The tank needs to have hiding places and caves and general 'stuff' that break line of sight. 'stuff' can include leaf litter; long drift wood; large rocks; sponge filter and so forth. The general rule for aggression with this species is as follows:

the male will establish a 'territory'. Females that can breed in his territory he will breed with; other females he will chase out. Females with eggs and fry will defend them and attack any fish near include the male. For this reason the male need places where he can hide from the female and the female from the male when either she has eggs/frys or she can't breed.

With two males they will establish a territory each and attack each other if they come near their territory. The level of aggression depends on each fish and can be rather mild to chase em till they are dead. Cockatoo lean on the more aggressive side in this respect. 

The tetra (depending on species) can be fry hunters so you should take that into account - ember are mostly safe and cardinals are fry hunters. Same for rainbow it depends on the species.

female<->female cockatoo aggression does exist; so there is that to consider. With a well scape tank you might handle 3 females or possibly two males but there is of course more risk. Typically what happens is the owner wakes up in the morning find one or two dead and post a note asking why his 'perfectly healthy fishes that weren't fighting the day before ended up dead'; and now you know why ;(

 

[Oftensniped]

On 10/11/2022 at 8:23 AM, anewbie said:

A couple of things; first as to number of males and females - that heavily depend on how the aquarium is laid out and temp. of fish. 

 

I would NOT add any more females at this point in time - i would add a single male and then see how it goes. The tank needs to have hiding places and caves and general 'stuff' that break line of sight. 'stuff' can include leaf litter; long drift wood; large rocks; sponge filter and so forth. The general rule for aggression with this species is as follows:

the male will establish a 'territory'. Females that can breed in his territory he will breed with; other females he will chase out. Females with eggs and fry will defend them and attack any fish near include the male. For this reason the male need places where he can hide from the female and the female from the male when either she has eggs/frys or she can't breed.

With two males they will establish a territory each and attack each other if they come near their territory. The level of aggression depends on each fish and can be rather mild to chase em till they are dead. Cockatoo lean on the more aggressive side in this respect. 

The tetra (depending on species) can be fry hunters so you should take that into account - ember are mostly safe and cardinals are fry hunters. Same for rainbow it depends on the species.

female<->female cockatoo aggression does exist; so there is that to consider. With a well scape tank you might handle 3 females or possibly two males but there is of course more risk. Typically what happens is the owner wakes up in the morning find one or two dead and post a note asking why his 'perfectly healthy fishes that weren't fighting the day before ended up dead'; and now you know why ;(

 

Interesting! I have heard that to insight breeding in apistos they need a harem of at least 3 or more females for every male, but have wondered how aggression is dealt with. I used to have a group of these apisto's I mentioned with one male and three females but I lost the male and one female during their tank upgrade (still unsure what happened to them) and when they actually had fry I didn't notice horrible displays of aggression between anything but the female did try her best to protect them. Which is funny in hindsight because I am pretty sure she ate them days later.

It could have been other tankmates as well, I have a few Lemon Tetras, some Alleni Rainbowfish "Wapoga", and some of the larger species of rainbows (one being a Melanotaenia boesemani, another being the Turquoise rainbow, and the other two being what I think is female red rainbows (never turned red though)). However, anytime they would curiously come over she would chase them away so I am not sure when this could have happened.

[anewbie]

I don't believe there is a magic number; also different species have different level of aggression; the general logic of more female is one will always be ready to breed but still the male is going to attack any female in his territory that is not ready to breed.

[tolstoy21]

I can't state it any better than @anewbie already has.

[itsfoxtail]

Hi! Just throwing in my quick two cents on the subject: I would definitely second not adding any more females. I hadn't heard a lot about female to female aggression on this species but firsthand I think the females are just as aggressive as the males, especially towards one another, no matter the tank size or how many territories/lines of sight breaks you have. 

Then again my females could just be extra mean.🤷‍♀️

[tolstoy21]

On 10/11/2022 at 10:00 PM, itsfoxtail said:

I hadn't heard a lot about female to female aggression on this species

I see this from time to time. The females can become defensive of their own territories against other females. The aggression is never as extreme as when they are guarding fry, but I've seen them chase other rival females off, away from their cave. 

I agree with sticking with 2 females for now. I typically breed cacatuoides in pairs, and not in harems, but this is more a condition of the tank sizes I use.  In a larger tank, multiple females are fine, but you don't want to overdo it.

Also, I have found that sometimes you will have very large spawns, 100+. If this happens with multiple females at the same time, you suddenly have to scramble for tank space, scurry to save them from being gobbled up, and hurry to keep the females from killing each other, their shared husband and everyone else in the tank.  Then you have to figure out to do with all those fish!

However, if you just want to keep adults fish cause they are an attractive addition to any tank, and you are Ok letting the rainbows, etc. gobble up the fry, then problem solved! 

You can try out 2 males, but I would only do that if they are introduced at the same time.  Once one male has established that the tank is his, it's harder to add a second male. 

I know I've related this story here before, but I had a single male that claimed an entire, well-planted 125G community tank and killed any other male I put in. He would literally lurk around looking for them and then would beat the heck out of them.  Mostly they would cower, pale and stressed out, in the corner of the tank, behind an amazon sword. This is probably not typical, but it can happen. 

[anewbie]

On 10/13/2022 at 7:15 AM, tolstoy21 said:

 

Also, I have found that sometimes you will have very large spawns, 100+. If this happens with multiple females at the same time, you suddenly have to scramble for tank space, scurry to save them from being gobbled up, and hurry to keep the females from killing each other, their shared husband and everyone else in the tank.  Then you have to figure out to do with all those fish!

 

frequently when you have multiple females they will adopt some of the frys if they don't have their own brood.

[tolstoy21]

On 10/13/2022 at 8:54 AM, anewbie said:

frequently when you have multiple females they will adopt some of the frys if they don't have their own brood.

God that would be awesome to see.  Instead, with my bad luck, I usually find the childless female snacking on the new mother's kids!

[Oftensniped]

On 10/13/2022 at 8:54 AM, anewbie said:

frequently when you have multiple females they will adopt some of the frys if they don't have their own brood.

I have never heard that before, that is fascinating! I guess even fish believe it takes a village to raise kids!

[itsfoxtail]

On 10/13/2022 at 7:54 AM, anewbie said:

frequently when you have multiple females they will adopt some of the frys if they don't have their own brood.

Wow! I've never heard of this! 

Add it to my bucket list of things to see along with Ram colony breeding.

[gardenman]

Territorial fish are interesting. Some are happy with smaller territories while others want more. Sometimes a lot more. There was a video from the Amazon a while back of a cichlid defending a ten-foot radius he'd claimed. He even chased off a large caiman that dared to enter his circle of death. He kept going after the cameraman until the cameraman got outside his circle of death. If you have a fish that claims a ten-foot territory, you're going to need a really big tank to keep it. They get a bit crazed.

If you watch your current male apisto closely, you can figure out his current territorial boundaries. How much of the tank he's claimed and how much remains unclaimed largely determines whether you can add another male or not. If he's just laid claim to a tenth of the tank, you can probably add another male. There should be enough room left for the two to co-exist. (Bear in mind male number two may want the same turf as male number one, so there are no guarantees.) 

Crowding fish often lessens territorial issues. African cichlids tend to be better behaved when in a crowd. The same is true for many South American cichlids. But you don't know if that'll work for you unless or until you try and you can create chaos trying it when it doesn't work.