pH and Seachem I need help

[KittenFishMom]

I’m trying to fix up the pH and KH in my fish tanks. My bottled spring water test readings are strange after it has been in the tank for a day.

Test results:

My GH stays red-purple, which means it is above 300

My KH drops to yellow which is zero

My pH drops to yellow with a hint of orange which is below 6.4

Chemicals:

I ordered a bottle of Seachem Equilibrium hoping it would fix this problem. The back of the bottle said “To maintain KH, we recommend Alkaline Buffer”

I ordered a bottle of Seachem Alkaline Buffer hoping it would fix the problem. The back of that bottle said, “In order to adjust pH gradually, use Alkaline Buffer with Acid Buffer.”

I ordered a bottle of Seachem Acid Buffer. I also called Seachem and they recommended ½ teaspoon Alkaline Buffer (dissolved in water) per tank the first day and testing and adding ¼ teaspoon each following day as needed until the Acid Buffer arrived.

The Acid Buffer arrived after business hours on a Friday.

Now I have 3 bottles in front of me (better than 3 frontal lobotomies, I think)

The ratio chart says it is based on RO water.

Use a ratio of 1:1 (equal part) of Acid buffer to Alkaline buffer to get a pH of 6.

Use a ratio of 1:1.3 to get a pH of 6.5.

Use a ratio of 1:2 to get a pH of 7.

Use a ratio of 1:2.5 to get a pH of 7.5

Use a ratio of 1:4 to get a pH of 8

Tank Stocking:

In 2 10-gallon tanks, I have too many guppies, a male betta, too many snails, and 1 Amazon Sword plant.

In third 10-gallon tank, I have too many male guppies, a male betta, 3 large corys, neon tetras, Kuhli loaches, Yoyo loaches, ghost shrimp, too many snails, and lots of plants.

In the fourth tank, I have too many male guppies, a male betta, very young corys, Kuhli loaches, ghost shrimp, too many snails, and lots of plants.

Questions:

I guess the first question is “What pH am I aiming for, given my current stocking of the tanks?”. Given that the guppies are over stocking each tank, I think I should be aiming at the lower end of any pH range to prevent danger from ammonia or nitrite. I’m doing at least one water change almost every day due to nitrite. I am rehoming the guppies as fast as I can.

The second question is “How much of each buffer do I need to use to get to the correct pH in a 10-gallon tank?”.

The third question is “How many days should it take to reach that goal?”. I don’t want to change the pH too fast for the fish to deal with. (I think this may be tricky with all the water changes.)

(I will be slowly transitioning to well water starting in about a month but let’s just start with what we have right now.)

THANK YOU TO WHOEVER GETS THIS FAR IN MY POST !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/8/2022 at 2:37 AM, KittenFishMom said:

THANK YOU TO WHOEVER GETS THIS FAR IN MY POST !!!!!!!!!!!!

You’re welcome!

If I were you, I’d try sinking the pH with Indian Almond leaves, and buffer it with crushed coral. I’ll tag @Guppysnail, who somehow knows a lot about this kind of thing!

[Guppysnail]

This is a @modified lung water quality question. I don’t alter water or use chemicals. If I found myself in a situation where I had to I would avoid chemicals and try to find a natural way to stabilize but I don’t know if that is possible in this situation.  I was forced to use ph neutral 2x due to water company and I did not do a stellar job. 
 

[tolstoy21]

I agree with what other posters said here.

Equilibrium is used to boost Gh only. It has no impact on Kh. It's good for remineralizing RO water, or boosting very soft tap water.

The Alkaline/Acid buffer combination is used to target a specific Ph.  I use these from time to time and they take some tinkering, experimenting and time to get used to and to dial in your ratios.

What was explained to me by the folks at Seachem (I had to ask on their support forum cause I was flummoxed by its use as well) . . . . . the only reason you add acid buffer to alkaline buffer is to stabilize it and prevent it sudden swings in your tank. The combination of these two is meant to gradually change the Ph of existing tank water. The will neutralize one another  to a degree over the course of the day after introduction to the tank and supposedly stabilize at the desired Ph. If you're mixing water in a bucket, I don't think you need the acid buffer (but I could be wrong).

There is a dosage calculator on their website -- > https://www.seachem.com/alkaline-buffer.php

Click the 'Directions' part and then click the tab for 'Dosage Calculator'.

Edited October 8, 2022 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

Ok to add to this something more concrete . . . 

I would put water into a 5 gallon bucket and then dose it with alkaline buffer (keeping track of how much you put in) until you reach your desired Ph. Then for 10g, multiply that amount by 2. 

Now that you know the dosage of alkaline buffer needed to achieve your goals, use the chart to understand the ratio of alkaline to acid buffer to be used when dosing your tank directly.

At least this is the method I use when using these products.

Edited October 8, 2022 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

For most of those fish, except maybe the guppies (about which I know very little so can't answer), I think a Ph of 6.4 is fine.

If you want to add some Kh to avoid sudden Ph crashes, crushed aragonite or coral in a media bag in your filter or mixed in the substrate works well. I'd just introduce that slowly to get a feeling for how much Kh it adds.  Both of these are much easier to use than the Seachem products and last a lot, lot, lot longer. You wont have to add more with each water change like you will the Seachem buffers.

You just need 'some' Kh present to help stabilize the Ph and keep it from swinging. This is more important than a specific target number for many fish species.

Tetras prefer low Ph. I had salt-and-pepper corys in a ph of 6.4 - 6.8 for years and they were fine and spawned quite frequently. I also had Kuhli loaches in that for a few years as well.

Snails don't love acidic water, so maybe add some calcium to their diets if you see shell erosion. 

Betta should be fine, I think?

Alas, never kept guppies.

Edited October 8, 2022 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

Ok, one more post, sorry for so many in a row, but just seeing another aspect of your original question. 

On 10/7/2022 at 8:37 PM, KittenFishMom said:

(I will be slowly transitioning to well water starting in about a month but let’s just start with what we have right now.)

Do you have a parameter reading on your well water?

[TeeJay]

I think you have a lot of great input here. But if it was me all of that info would make my head spin off with what to do. 

I really think it boils down to how your fish are doing. Do they seem healthy? Eat well? Active? If so then I wouldn't panic to fast about the balance. 

I have 0 kh in my water and as @Guppysnail states I don't like to use chemicals to balance my water. I chose to go with the crushed coral to help get my kh up to give a nice buffer for my pH level. I use roughly 1lbs of coral in a media bag in my hob filter as well as mixing in roughly 2-3lbs into my gravel substrate in a 29 gal tank. With having some smaller tanks I would say a good start would be 1/2lbs in the hob and 1/2-1lbs mixed in the substrate 

The crushed coral is slow to dissolve. A little faster in the filter since it has more water flow over it. It took roughly about 2 months for me to gradually get to a kh of 4. I would like it to be closer to 6 but it stays steady so I'm happy with that. 

yes there is some proof out there that crushed coral can affect the way plants can absorb some nutrients. But I have yet to see it affect any of my plants growth. I have have Java ferns and mosses. Amazon swords Pogo's water sprites guppy grass and some Anubias with no I'll affects.  

Now this is just from my own experiences. Just thought it may be helpful.

[tolstoy21]

On 10/8/2022 at 8:40 AM, TeeJay said:

I think you have a lot of great input here. But if it was me all of that info would make my head spin off with what to do. 

True!

If you like the params of your well water (you mentioned transitioning to it) . . . 

The simplest thing to do would be to perform a 10-25% water change every day or two until you've swapped the water out. Is there any reason to wait a month for that?

If you have to wait, just leave the params exactly where they are right now for the next month, and focus on keeping nitrate, nitrite and ammonia down.  One month in your current water params (gh/kh/ph) wont kill your fish (but ammonia and nitrite will).

Edited October 8, 2022 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

On 10/8/2022 at 8:53 AM, Pepere said:

Well crushed coral is essentially calcium Carbonate…. So you are adding a chemical….

Well that's just semantics. You could argue that neither or both are chemicals. Let's just term them all 'additives' and say that what one uses is a personal preference. They all achieve the same goal in a safe way for fish.

Edited October 8, 2022 by tolstoy21

[KittenFishMom]

just started reading this morning.

@TheSwissAquarist I forgot to mention that all tanks have IAL, crushed coral, wonder shells, 1 or more HOB filter, 1 or more larger sponge filters, driftwood, and extra air stones in them.  The big problem is the overstocking. After reading the thread on culling. I think that is what I need to do first. I never meant to have the guppies breed out of control for months. When I bought clover oil and asked for advice on culling in March (I think) people said add plants to help with the water quality. The guppy population then exploded, and I didn't get it to slow down until mid-summer when I took out all the plants that reached the surface or floated, including the duck weed and added the bettas to all the tanks. In hindsight I should have culled the guppies when I first got the clove oil, but we didn't know at that point that Mom would be ill for months and not recover. If you breed fish, you must cull fish. I was an accidental breeder but I still need to cull the fish. No one has unlimited tank space. 

Edited October 8, 2022 by KittenFishMom

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/8/2022 at 5:50 PM, Pepere said:

I don’t keep any live bearers for that reason.

 

If I did, I think I would have a larger fish tank of predatory fish in the house in order to cull them.

And if I did that, my wife would be fit to be tied…. So, I dont think I will keep Live Bearers…

Fully understandable (especially that last bit!)

[KittenFishMom]

@TeeJay The fish are very happy, healthy, and thriving. I have only had 3 guppies die since May. Far less than 1%.

I'm the one that is miserable. I am burned out on constantly testing water and buying and changing water. The bottom line is I have 4 very overstocked tanks and no time or energy to start cleaning and building on my 55 gallon tank.  I have given away a lot of guppies, and the only place left that might take more, the LFS, is having very slow business with a new chain pet store opened across the street and LFS may not take any more guppies.

I was trying to solve the wrong problem here. I was an accidental breeder and all breeders must cull. I will probably start culling tomorrow, after the bbs hatch. I figure I will put the guppies in a bucket with some plants and the bbs and then dose with clove oil until the guppies stop moving or the clove oil is gone.  Not sure how much water the little bottle I have will treat.

Once the guppies are gone, I will either build the 55 or get out of the hobby.

[modified lung]

On 10/7/2022 at 5:37 PM, KittenFishMom said:

“What pH am I aiming for, given my current stocking of the tanks?”

I wouldn't worry too much about keeping a certain pH level as long as it's not extremely high or low. 

On 10/7/2022 at 5:37 PM, KittenFishMom said:

I’m doing at least one water change almost every day due to nitrite.

The problem here is your alkalinity. The bacteria eat bicarbonates to reproduce. At zero KH, the population won't grow much and the cycle won't establish.

On 10/7/2022 at 5:37 PM, KittenFishMom said:

“How much of each buffer do I need to use to get to the correct pH in a 10-gallon tank?”.

1 tsp of baking soda per 10 gallons will bring KH up 4 degrees which is a good level. Seachem Alkaline Buffer is mostly baking soda so 1 tsp of that will probably bring it up about the same. Then whatever that brings your pH to is fine. You don't need the Equilibrium. It will only add to your GH. I don't think you need Acid Buffer either. It just overcomplicates things.

If you want to use both the Alkaline and Acid Buffer, then like others said, you'll need to do some experimenting. You can start with the recommended amounts or half of them if you want to be extra safe. See what happens and go from there. 

On 10/7/2022 at 5:37 PM, KittenFishMom said:

“How many days should it take to reach that goal?”.

How much your pH will change depends on what all else is in your water. Usually I try not to swing the pH more than 0.5 a day with additives. I add ¼ to ½ of how much you need and see what happens. If it doesn't swing the pH to much I add more. If it does, then I wait until tomorrow to add more. Take as many days as you feel comfortable.

On 10/8/2022 at 7:34 AM, KittenFishMom said:

wonder shells

This probably mostly why your water is getting so hard.

[AndEEss]

Part of the problem is your bio load. You’re way overstocked. BB consume calcium and that will drive down your KH and buffering capacity. 

Also, yoyo loaches in a 10g??? Really?

[KittenFishMom]

@AndEEss What is/are BB? I'm feeding baby brine shrimp, but they don't live long in the freshwater.

The big box store told the yoyo loaches were dwarf chain loaches. It took me a couple of days to figure out they were yoyo loaches. I didn't think they would be easy to catch in a planted tank, and the store did not want them back. I am planning to do a build on my 55 tank as soon as the guppies and their bio load were gone, so the yoyo loaches would be moved to the 55 in about 2 or 3 months.

if you go up 4 posts or so, I comment on the over stocking.

Edited October 9, 2022 by KittenFishMom

[AndEEss]

BB = beneficial bacteria. They consume calcium. When you have overstocked tanks, that means more BB, and more calcium consumption.

[KittenFishMom]

@AndEEss Yes, that is why I add crushed coal and wonder shells, to add more calcium.