anewbie Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Does anyone have first hand experience with doing 'whole house' ro/di piping and if so what kind of material is safe. I've done the usual google searching and have found some conflicting material. PVDF is suppose to be the safest but is extremely expensive. pvc and plex is suppose to be a big no-no due to leaching. What about carbon graphite pipes or ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBOzzie59 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Will you be drinking this DI water? You should not drink DI water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcow Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 This ASPE article shows that Pex is at least reasonably acceptable, but PVDF is the champ. Not sure if PEX A or PEX B would be a better choice. In my industrial applications, I only ever did RO, not RO/DI, so we did everything in 316L Stainless tubing. https://www.aspe.org/pipeline/what-is-the-best-material-for-reverse-osmosis-water-for-hospital-equipment/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted October 1, 2022 Author Share Posted October 1, 2022 On 10/1/2022 at 10:01 AM, KBOzzie59 said: Will you be drinking this DI water? You should not drink DI water. No. On 10/1/2022 at 10:48 AM, flyingcow said: This ASPE article shows that Pex is at least reasonably acceptable, but PVDF is the champ. Not sure if PEX A or PEX B would be a better choice. In my industrial applications, I only ever did RO, not RO/DI, so we did everything in 316L Stainless tubing. https://www.aspe.org/pipeline/what-is-the-best-material-for-reverse-osmosis-water-for-hospital-equipment/ California indicated a problem with Pex-A leaching dangerous chemicals; not sure about pex-b. I don't know about type-1/type-2/type-3 waters; also I don't know if PP meets code. I've heard that 316L stainless can rust if not treated/coated with DI water. My understanding is the problem with DI water is that it has no ion so it will readily accept any ions it can find lying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted October 1, 2022 Author Share Posted October 1, 2022 Hum i found this article with more information: https://www.corzan.com/blog/what-is-deionized-water-and-which-piping-materials-convey-it-effectively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcow Posted October 2, 2022 Share Posted October 2, 2022 (edited) On 10/1/2022 at 12:29 PM, anewbie said: No. California indicated a problem with Pex-A leaching dangerous chemicals; not sure about pex-b. I don't know about type-1/type-2/type-3 waters; also I don't know if PP meets code. I've heard that 316L stainless can rust if not treated/coated with DI water. My understanding is the problem with DI water is that it has no ion so it will readily accept any ions it can find lying around. Yeah, DI is tricky. 316L works well for regular RO, but I'd guess you'd do a PTFE liner with RODI or regular passivation / derouging. Edited October 2, 2022 by flyingcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcow Posted October 2, 2022 Share Posted October 2, 2022 On 10/1/2022 at 12:35 PM, anewbie said: Hum i found this article with more information: https://www.corzan.com/blog/what-is-deionized-water-and-which-piping-materials-convey-it-effectively Huh... Well cpvc is cheap and easy to get... I gotta ask around our life science people (I do beverage plants). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted October 2, 2022 Author Share Posted October 2, 2022 On 10/1/2022 at 10:13 PM, flyingcow said: Huh... Well cpvc is cheap and easy to get... I gotta ask around our life science people (I do beverage plants). I was thinking cpvc until i found another article that said cpvc would decay over time with ro/di water 😞 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcow Posted October 2, 2022 Share Posted October 2, 2022 On 10/2/2022 at 3:50 AM, anewbie said: I was thinking cpvc until i found another article that said cpvc would decay over time with ro/di water 😞 I mean, anything will decay over time, and anything will technically leach into rodi water. It's a matter of minimizing it. I mean, what are your makeup tanks gonna be made of? Out of curiosity, how big of a line are you thinking? How many GPM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcow Posted October 2, 2022 Share Posted October 2, 2022 Ok, got a little info. Small lines are poly tube (ptfe or pvdf preferred) bigger stuff is 316L stainless with passivation. No pvc or cpvc Ok, got a little info. Small lines are poly tube (ptfe or pvdf preferred) bigger stuff is 316L stainless with passivation. No pvc or cpvc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenman Posted October 2, 2022 Share Posted October 2, 2022 The big question is why do you want RO/DI water all through a house? Making RO/DI water produces a lot of wastewater that you have to get rid of. A "traditional" RO/DI system will produce 4 gallons of wastewater for every gallon of pure water. The newer high efficiency ones can get down to as low as one gallon of wastewater for every gallon of RO/DI water. But you've still got to get rid of the wastewater. Most fish need the RO/DI water to be remineralized in some manner to survive also. And plumbing an entire house with conventional piping isn't the cheapest thing in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted October 2, 2022 Author Share Posted October 2, 2022 On 10/2/2022 at 7:39 AM, gardenman said: The big question is why do you want RO/DI water all through a house? Making RO/DI water produces a lot of wastewater that you have to get rid of. A "traditional" RO/DI system will produce 4 gallons of wastewater for every gallon of pure water. The newer high efficiency ones can get down to as low as one gallon of wastewater for every gallon of RO/DI water. But you've still got to get rid of the wastewater. Most fish need the RO/DI water to be remineralized in some manner to survive also. And plumbing an entire house with conventional piping isn't the cheapest thing in the world. That is not a big question; i am piping the ro/di water from the basement to the 1st and 2nd floor for the aquarium - it has its own pipe system so i'm only using it with the aquariums; anyway it might seem like a big question to you but you can safely assume i know what I am trying to accomplish and why i need to ro/di water. The 'big question' is how to safely get it from the basement to the 1st and 2nd floor rooms without having to worry about the water being contaminated or the pipes degrading over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted October 2, 2022 Author Share Posted October 2, 2022 On 10/2/2022 at 7:36 AM, flyingcow said: Ok, got a little info. Small lines are poly tube (ptfe or pvdf preferred) bigger stuff is 316L stainless with passivation. No pvc or cpvc Ok, got a little info. Small lines are poly tube (ptfe or pvdf preferred) bigger stuff is 316L stainless with passivation. No pvc or cpvc You can get one inch pp pipes; what is ptfe? Can you check if one inch polypropylene pipe will work for this application? 316L stianless steel pipes are an option but i'm not sure how to buy pipes with passivation. I can't find 1 inch ptfe pipes that are food grade. On 10/2/2022 at 6:47 AM, flyingcow said: I mean, anything will decay over time, and anything will technically leach into rodi water. It's a matter of minimizing it. I mean, what are your makeup tanks gonna be made of? Out of curiosity, how big of a line are you thinking? How many GPM? The length will be approx 20 feet vertical and 100 feet horizontal (three rooms have to be reached); the hope was 1 inch diameter but i would not be unhappy with 3/4 id. The goal is 10 gpm (gallons per minute) of flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcow Posted October 2, 2022 Share Posted October 2, 2022 On 10/2/2022 at 3:09 PM, anewbie said: You can get one inch pp pipes; what is ptfe? Can you check if one inch polypropylene pipe will work for this application? 316L stianless steel pipes are an option but i'm not sure how to buy pipes with passivation. I can't find 1 inch ptfe pipes that are food grade. The length will be approx 20 feet vertical and 100 feet horizontal (three rooms have to be reached); the hope was 1 inch diameter but i would not be unhappy with 3/4 id. The goal is 10 gpm (gallons per minute) of flow. Is this for tank filling? If you remineralize the water, you don't have to worry about materials at all. PTFE is basically teflon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted October 2, 2022 Author Share Posted October 2, 2022 On 10/2/2022 at 3:13 PM, flyingcow said: Is this for tank filling? If you remineralize the water, you don't have to worry about materials at all. PTFE is basically teflon. I'm not remineralizing the water; i'm mixing it with tap water in some aquariums and others i'm using it straight (blackwater conditions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcow Posted October 2, 2022 Share Posted October 2, 2022 On 10/2/2022 at 4:14 PM, anewbie said: I'm not remineralizing the water; i'm mixing it with tap water in some aquariums and others i'm using it straight (blackwater conditions). Gotcha, I'd be looking at rigid, or maybe flex tubing. 3/4" is easy to find. Not cheap, but not horrific. 1" will get spendy and quick. I'd avoid SS since it would need to be welded and passivated, neither of which is something you can easily do. I'll double check on material specs. 10 GPM is quite a lot. Will that beat up on substrate, or are the tanks that big? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted October 2, 2022 Author Share Posted October 2, 2022 On 10/2/2022 at 3:29 PM, flyingcow said: Gotcha, I'd be looking at rigid, or maybe flex tubing. 3/4" is easy to find. Not cheap, but not horrific. 1" will get spendy and quick. I'd avoid SS since it would need to be welded and passivated, neither of which is something you can easily do. I'll double check on material specs. 10 GPM is quite a lot. Will that beat up on substrate, or are the tanks that big? The pp pipe i mentioned above is a pipe that is sold at many stores like homedepot/lowes so it is quasi rigid and not that expensive at 1 inch; however i don't know if it is suitable for an in the wall pipe. ptfe i can't find as a food grade pipe - i realize it is basically teflon but the pipe needs to be suitable for fishes and i'm using food grade as the dliminiter. 10gpm is just what the common pumps can handle. These are large tanks - 550, 450 and 4 ~200 gallon aquariums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 On 10/2/2022 at 3:29 PM, flyingcow said: Gotcha, I'd be looking at rigid, or maybe flex tubing. 3/4" is easy to find. Not cheap, but not horrific. 1" will get spendy and quick. I'd avoid SS since it would need to be welded and passivated, neither of which is something you can easily do. I'll double check on material specs. 10 GPM is quite a lot. Will that beat up on substrate, or are the tanks that big? I wanted to ask if your contact had any additional comments on 316 stainless steel or pp pipes; also what is background (expertise?). Finally do you know if most 316 ss pipe are sold passivated ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcow Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 On 10/4/2022 at 9:25 AM, anewbie said: I wanted to ask if your contact had any additional comments on 316 stainless steel or pp pipes; also what is background (expertise?). Finally do you know if most 316 ss pipe are sold passivated ? You can't get 316l pre-passivated since you need to welbut. And transportationand handling will damage the chromium oxide layer. It needs to be done in place. It's not reasonable to do in a residential application. PP might be fine, but I think PE might be a better choice. I'll look into it a bit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 On 10/4/2022 at 8:34 AM, flyingcow said: You can't get 316l pre-passivated since you need to welbut. And transportationand handling will damage the chromium oxide layer. It needs to be done in place. It's not reasonable to do in a residential application. PP might be fine, but I think PE might be a better choice. I'll look into it a bit. What is PE ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcow Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 On 10/4/2022 at 12:59 PM, anewbie said: What is PE ? Polyethylene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 On 10/4/2022 at 12:08 PM, flyingcow said: Polyethylene Well that stuff is dirt cheap; why not just use it instead of copper for water pipes in a house ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted October 6, 2022 Author Share Posted October 6, 2022 Were you able to discover anything between pp and pe. I'm pretty sure both are options. The most i've discovered is that pe is almost certainly going to be a tube; and finding food grade tubing that is 3/4 or 1 inch id (inner diameter) is not easy; pp will almost certainly be a pipe and is readily available in sched 40 and sched 80; not sure if segments are glued or fused. I'm leaning towards pp as a pipe. The negative of pp seems to be that you don't want to run hot water through it; but other than that i can find almost no information on the trade off between pe and pp for my application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcow Posted October 6, 2022 Share Posted October 6, 2022 PE can be rigid tubing or flexible. So can PP. I'd discuss this with a plumber at this point since you're looking at these options to go in wall. As someone who builds factories and therefore puts this stuff in pipe rack, I wouldn't know what can or can't go in wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted October 6, 2022 Author Share Posted October 6, 2022 (edited) On 10/6/2022 at 1:54 PM, flyingcow said: PE can be rigid tubing or flexible. So can PP. I'd discuss this with a plumber at this point since you're looking at these options to go in wall. As someone who builds factories and therefore puts this stuff in pipe rack, I wouldn't know what can or can't go in wall. Do you think one has an advantage over the other long term? The plumber knows nothing about it. I did conclude that if i went with PE i could consider putting it in a pvc pipe... You see i live in a backward major city in the south and no-one knows anything about this stuff. The person working at the local aquarium (a small one) suggested we use pvc .... which i think i've decided is not a good idea. Edited October 6, 2022 by anewbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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