New hobbyist - carnage after treating with ich x

[Terri57]

Hi,

I'm new to the hobby. Started with a 3.5 gallon with a betta first for a few months, which went fine. Got a snail tank-mate for him, which was fine for a few weeks. Water parameters seem good (0, 0, 10). Started a bigger 14 gallon recently, cycled the water (same parameters) and added 5 neon tetras, 3 albino cory cats and 3 endler live bearers. 

Six/7 days ago I noticed 1 white spot on one neon and 2 on another. Watched it for 2 days and no change so I thought it was stress ich from the big move. The next day, 3 neons had multiple spots, so I began the Ich X treatment as directed on the bottle and in Aquarium Co-Op videos. Saw noted improvement in the spots, BUT:

-One neon continued to have 1-2 spots after five days of treatment

-I successfully cross contaminated my betta tank, and then HE had 2 spots, labored breathing and lethargy, so I treated his tank for 2 days (he seems better).

-I asked about combining the 2 tanks since I was treating them both, it was taking me, a beginner, HOURS every morning to do so, and my hands were raw from continuous washing so as not to continue cross contamination. I was told it was ok to do, so now the betta is in the big tank.

-In the last 3 days I have lost 4 of the 5 neons (I can't find one of the missing ones!), and my snail is no longer doing well. My cats were very lethargic throughout treatment but now, since I put the charcoal filter back in, they seem better.

I just don't know what to do now? I have the sick snail back in the 3.5 gallon for fear that he may contaminate the big tank further with whatever he has. I'm down to one lonely neon who, I assume, will die soon without his neon buddies and stressed out as a result. 

What would you do? Do I do water changes (25%?) any time soon to freshen it all up? I'm paranoid about any white setiment I see in the big tank (on the wood, substrate, etc). Do I change the water in the snail tank and quarantine some new neons to add to the lonely guy? How do I know if ich IS gone other than not seeing spots on fish any more?

Sorry so long. Thanks for ANY help for a newbie.

[AnimalNerd98]

so sorry to hear that this happened to you 😞 I have lost fish to ich in the past as well, not a great feeling. 

1) Yes, you should do some water changes to remove the medication. 25-50% twice a week for two weeks should be good. 
 

2) Yes, you should also change the water on the snail tank. I haven’t heard of snails getting infected with ich, but it is possible for them to carry it around in one of the parasite’s life stages.

3) Yes, I think you should quarantine and get some new neons. 
 

4) To be honest, there is always a risk of there being a disease in your tank as long as there are fish (hosts). We might not see it because the fish’s immune systems and slime coats are strong enough to hold it off, but the moment something becomes suboptimal and stresses out our fish, there is a chance for a disease to rear its ugly head. What I’ve done in the past to make sure all diseases are killed in a tank and substrate is to completely drain it down and let it dry out for a couple weeks. Technically, the parasites should also die out without a host after letting a fish less tank run for a couple weeks. Do whatever you think is practical for you. 

[Terri57]

Thank you SO much for the thorough reply - I truly appreciate it. I found the dead neon buried among the wood, and had a bit of a nitrite spike as a result of him being in there for 2 days. Did a 30% water change and will test again tomorrow. In the mean time, my final neon passed away (I figured he would.) So now my other fish seem to be ok, and hopefully the tank will settle back to normal. 

I'm a bit gun shy about adding new fish. Especially if the betta chases them for a bit when they are added and stresses them out, and then ick comes back. I don't have the confidence yet of a seasoned fish keeper. 😉 

Again, I appreciate your advice. 

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/18/2022 at 9:23 AM, Terri57 said:

my snail is no longer doing well.

Snails do not tolerate fish meds well.  He should be moved out to a med-free tank to help him recover.  You can even use a plastic storage tote, if you have a heater and filter for it.

 

On 8/18/2022 at 11:35 AM, AnimalNerd98 said:

We might not see it because the fish’s immune systems and slime coats are strong enough

This is so true!  They might look healthy at the store, but then the trip home might stress them, different water conditions, different tank mates, etc.  Then their immune systems weaken and they present symptoms.

 

On 8/18/2022 at 9:23 AM, Terri57 said:

it was taking me, a beginner, HOURS every morning to do so

What does your treatment plan consist of?  With meds, it is generally just add the meds and let the fish soak in them for a period of time, making sure there is no carbon in the filter, and keeping lights off if possible to keep stress down for the fishes, and so as not to degrade the meds with UV light.  Is it the water changes that are taking so much time each morning?  Maybe we can help you to get your maintenance time reduced.

 

One other tip is to add an extra airstone to any tank you medicate if you are able to, as some medications make it harder for the fish to breathe.

So sorry you are dealing with all of this.  Your tanks look nice!  You are in the right spot here at the forum. We will help however we can.  I have found everyone to be helpful and they like to share knowledge.

@Colu

Edited August 18, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/18/2022 at 9:23 AM, Terri57 said:

I can't find one of the missing ones!

Cory cats and snails are known to eat dead fishes.

[Terri57]

Snail: OK! That makes sense. I thought it would be ok because the Ich X says it's snail safe and so does Corey. But every being is different. He's very lethargic. Sometimes hanging out of his shell and sometimes in it, but not moving the last couple days. I moved him back into the 3.5 gallon and did a 30% water change today, added the charcoal filter media in again, and hoping for the best. The water parameters still read ok in there, which is good.  I'll do that (change water) maybe for the next few days?

Fish: It took me hours because of the water changes, yes, but also because once I realized I had cross contaminated the tanks, I was washing my hands after touching anything in the water (syphon, bucket, etc.) and then touching anything else that could possibly cross contaminate, like syringes for adding Prime for example. Then doing the same thing again for the other tank. I even went out and bought a 2nd bucket, more nets, and syphon so each tank has one...plus I was just on the slower side being so new to the process. 

Oh, and I did buy an air pump and dedicated a hose and airstone to each tank, and rotated running it between the two tanks. I now have it dedicated to the 14 gallon as the snail (Greg) is the only guy in the 3.5 gallon. Might as well use his name. Respect. 😉

I swear, I've watched HOURS of videos (Corey, Prime Time Aquatics, KG Tropicals, Kaveman Aquatics, Girl Talks Fish) and I swore I did everything right. But alas... carnage. 

SO appreciate you both!

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/18/2022 at 3:56 PM, Terri57 said:

I even went out and bought a 2nd bucket, more nets, and syphon so each tank has one

That's perfect.  That's what I did too.  I have a red bucket for quarantine/med tank. Red=bad.  Or STOP.  However you want to look at it.  The color helps me to know.

 

On 8/18/2022 at 3:56 PM, Terri57 said:

I swear, I've watched HOURS of videos (Corey, Prime Time Aquatics, KG Tropicals, Kaveman Aquatics, Girl Talks Fish) and I swore I did everything right. But alas... carnage. 

Don't let it get you down.  You really are on the right track and you are doing your research to provide the best care.  The critters go through a lot before they even get to our homes.  They often start in big ponds, the ponds are dredged with huge nets, then they are transferred into concrete "burial vaults" - they await shipment for a few days there. Then they are bagged and sent to the store through whatever kind of transportation; jostled around in the process. Then the store puts them in with whatever other critters, with whatever kind of water quality, maybe it's not even well suited to them.  Then they get netted and bagged and taken on a trip home, and all of these things together stress the fish.   Stress leads to illness.  This happens to all of us fishkeepers - you could have done everything perfectly but it could just be what they've been through up to this point.  

For pretty cheap, you may consider picking up a gang valve like this.  It lets you split air between tanks if you don't have the cash for another air pump.  Or you can split the air between 2 airstones in one tank, etc.  https://www.aquariumcoop.com/products/4-way-metal-gang-valve

 

Sometimes they are green, like this: https://www.amazon.com/Lok-Tite®-Regulator-Gang-Valves-Aquariums/dp/B0002564O4/ref=sr_1_7?crid=3TI7PAMU75OH8&keywords=2+way+gang+valve+aquarium&qid=1660853663&s=pet-supplies&sprefix=2+way+gang%2Cpets%2C89&sr=1-7

Edited August 18, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Terri57]

Yes! Good idea with the quarantine and good-to-go bucket and syphon. I also heard today to maybe have one for taking out water and one for putting in water, but I think this might work better for me (good/bad or one for each tank.)

Thank you. Geez, I had no idea about how these guys are raised, and what they go through to get to the store. Part of me wants to research it, and the other part is like no, it'll make me sad. I keep hermit crabs, too. Those poor guys are lucky to be alive by the time they get to us. 

  

Quote

 

Well duh...WHY didn't I even think of the gang valve!! LOL! I use a line splitter like that in my crab tank. Great idea!

By the way, I like your mystery snail documents. 🙂

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/18/2022 at 4:14 PM, Terri57 said:

I had no idea about how these guys are raised

Yeah, maybe that was TMI.  I was trying to demonstrate that there's a lot of things that could make them ill, and it is probably not anything you did/didn't do.

I was watching hermit crab videos the other day!  It was fun.  I learned a lot about their care, which is oddly the opposite of what the hermit crab salespeople tell you.  LOL  

I liked watching people pamper their crabs and build them little jungle gyms and stuff in the tanks.

[Terri57]

Yes! It kills me when I hear or see sales people tell potential owners they are a "beginner pet" and easy. They are SO not a beginner pet! The set up and giving them what they need is extensive. And they are a HOOT on fast action video when they are using their hamster wheel. Super cute. Love that you are researching. The more people know, the better. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

One day I might set up a fiddler crab tank.  They need water AND land and they need brackish water.  One day.... 🙂

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/18/2022 at 6:23 AM, Terri57 said:

Started a bigger 14 gallon recently, cycled the water (same parameters) and added 5 neon tetras, 3 albino cory cats and 3 endler live bearers. 

What substrate is that?

How is your filter setup?

On 8/18/2022 at 6:23 AM, Terri57 said:

-I asked about combining the 2 tanks since I was treating them both, it was taking me, a beginner, HOURS every morning to do so, and my hands were raw from continuous washing so as not to continue cross contamination. I was told it was ok to do, so now the betta is in the big tank.

Yeah, the big thing here is just to keep in mind you need to sanitize / clean / dry out / or whatever other method of sterilization for the sake of "treating the tank" as both were contaminated.  You can use bleach, you can use a few things to do this.  I would do this to the equipment as well as the tank so you can start to set it up and re-cycle everything again.

On 8/18/2022 at 6:23 AM, Terri57 said:

-In the last 3 days I have lost 4 of the 5 neons (I can't find one of the missing ones!), and my snail is no longer doing well. My cats were very lethargic throughout treatment but now, since I put the charcoal filter back in, they seem better.

Can you please test the water for everything you're able to test and let us know.  As well as temp. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/18/2022 at 6:23 AM, Terri57 said:

What would you do? Do I do water changes (25%?) any time soon to freshen it all up? I'm paranoid about any white setiment I see in the big tank (on the wood, substrate, etc). Do I change the water in the snail tank and quarantine some new neons to add to the lonely guy? How do I know if ich IS gone other than not seeing spots on fish any more?

Your best bet is probably to do a full treatment with Ich-X again. 

Directions on the ACO Website specify:
 

Quote

Add 1 teaspoon (~5mL) for every ten (10) gallons. For best results, always treat in a separate quarantine or hospital tank and remove activated carbon. Every 24 hours, change 1/3 of the water and then re-dose Ich-X. Continue daily treatments until 3 days have passed where where no symptoms are seen.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/18/2022 at 6:23 AM, Terri57 said:

One neon continued to have 1-2 spots after five days of treatment

This is typically normal.  It could also be a sign that it wasn't Ich.

------------------

OK so.... Generally speaking with Ich there is a few things at play.
A.  The tank is hosting the disease, not simply one fish, so you're treating the tank as much as you are the fish themselves. Even when you do not see white spots on the fish, you could still have the ich in it's lifecycle in the tank substrate.
B.  Whenever you have sick fish, treating with meds you automatically should add an airstone.
C.  Whenever you treat for Ich you want to also treat for bacterial because the white spots disappear and leave open wounds on the fish.  this could lead to a secondary fungal / bacterial infection.  Ich-X treats the fungal, while Erythromycin (or Maracyn) will treat the bacterial.

 You CAN treat the ich itself first, then follow up with a treatment of bacterial, either method is acceptable, but one has slightly more risk.  You continue to treat the ich for 3-7 days following the last point when you stop seeing white spots on the fish.  Meaning, at that point you're treating the substrate and tank itself for the cysts that will hatch out.

Normally, whenever dosing for Ich, I would suggest aquarium salt as well. Because of the snail, this isn't something that's possible.

I do not think Ich-X directly caused the issues but potentially heat, parameters, filtration, aeration could've contributed to the losses on top of the stress of the medication itself.  I have used Ich-X a few times with snails and shrimp without any losses or issues.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/18/2022 at 9:06 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

the big thing here is just to keep in mind you need to sanitize / clean / dry out / or whatever other method of sterilization for the sake of "treating the tank" as both were contaminated.  You can use bleach, you can use a few things to do this.  I would do this to the equipment as well as the tank so you can start to set it up and re-cycle everything again.

The prob is, it’s a display tank, not a quarantine tank. It’s the main habitat for the fishes. Any alternatives? Wouldn’t the meds kill the stuff in the tank?

As a side note, ich is so not fun. I had ich in one of my tanks at the beginning of the year, and it caused some losses as well.

Raising the temperature in the tank will also help rid the tank of ich. I forget how high to go. I think I went to 86 when my tank had ich (Don’t quote me on the number. something to look into though).

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Ok here it is.

I followed these instructions for heat; It was 86 degrees. Ich cannot survive at that temp. If you watch this you may want to click settings and speed up the playback speed. He talks kinda slow. He’s got 70 years of fishkeeping experience though. LOL
 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/18/2022 at 6:48 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

The prob is, it’s a display tank, not a quarantine tank. It’s the main habitat for the fishes. Any alternatives? Wouldn’t the meds kill the stuff in the tank?

As a side note, ich is so not fun. I had ich in one of my tanks at the beginning of the year, and it caused some losses as well.

Raising the temperature in the tank will also help rid the tank of ich. I forget how high to go. I think I went to 86 when my tank had ich (Don’t quote me on the number. something to look into though).

Agreed.  I had the same thing happen and I went through 3 bottles of Ich-X.  It was not fun, but I can say I HIGHLY recommend the Aquarium Co-op measure glass for dosing.

The tank, display or not, now has ich. So you're going to end up treating the tank or you risk having more issues.  You can..... Remove the fish, then heat the tank up very warm for an extended period to minimize risk.  For the Ich to be killed, you need it to complete the cycle, for the cycle to be completed you need to have the fish.  It's a nasty one to get, and it can be extremely stressful. I had to bring my tank from 70 degrees up as high as the fish would tolerate.  I ended up losing about half of the tank and it took about ~3 weeks before I even saw some improvement because I had to slowly ramp up the temp every few days.

It all depends on how you want to handle it, my best advice.... treat the tank with salt + Ich-X + Erythromycin and it's a huge risk, but that's just the way that I've seen Cory handle it and recommended elsewhere with success.

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/18/2022 at 9:20 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Wouldn’t the meds kill the stuff in the tank?

Goes back to earlier and I was trying to understand what's fully going on.  Not adding an airstone, but adding meds might be what caused issues. Heck, because of the temps I would even add 2 airstones if you need to.  Some fish, especially cooler species (corydoras) really need that oxygenation when the temps get hot.  It's a very stressful process, predicable disease, but it's just so difficult to have the fish suffering and then to have to let that happen to cure them.

I think your best bet it to remove the snails, treat as above, but make sure that it's done in the way to best protect everything in the tank. 
Salt dose: 1/2 cup per 10G
Erythromycin / Maracyn: Follow directions on the package, make sure you have enough if you need to run a second week of treatment.
Ich-X: Order more now if you need to.  The goal being to change 30-50% of the water prior to every dose of this stuff.  It's easier if you can dose it, then repeat that dose every 24 hours.  The bottle explains it decently well, I'll grab the label just for clarity sake:



https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/how-to-treat-ich-on-freshwater-fish

Edited August 19, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

@nabokovfan87  I didn't medicate at all - I did the temperature raise + the garlic infusion in the display tank using the juice from fresh garlic cloves like in the video above. Still lost 2 of 9 fish, but it resolved it.  I don't think I changed any media either.  It was a successful experiment, if you will.  Controversial for sure, but Father Fish is a strong advocate of everything natural - natural tanks (soil, sand, plants, improved-upon Walstad method) and natural remedies, and I just happened upon his channel while I was having the issue.  (Also that garlic will stink up the tank room, and I got punched in the face with garlic smell every time I opened the lid.  P.U.  Husband walking in the room like, hey, did you make spaghetti?  I'm like, oh, uhhhh.. yeahhh... but I already ate it.  🤣)

And I didn't know that about the dechlorinators w/ ich-X.  Thanks!  I didn't read anything past the directions. (duh)

 

@Terri57 DON'T change your treatment method based on what I just said.  Stay on the SAME treatment that you are.  Continue through the course of meds, following the directions exactly.

On 8/19/2022 at 12:27 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would even add 2 airstones if you need to

Absolutely.  I do this every time I have sick fish and am treating them.  Some of those meds change the viscosity of the water as well, creating the need for more air.

[Terri57]

Morning! 

Boy, you guys are fabulous! I'm still learning this platform and apparently I can't reply to a specific post, so here I go replying to all. I know you can stick quotes in here (I tried that - you may have noted the empty "quote" box somewhere above. LOL!) but have to figure this out. I'm a teacher in my last 5 days of summer vacation, and not digging the idea of reading about how to master this format yet. I will though!

I ALSO only read the directions and had no idea that you couldn't use Prime with Ich X! So, what, I would need to find another dechlorinator that doesn't have that stuff in it for next time, I guess? I do have another one in my fridge - I'll check it out.

Update on the tanks:

-The 14 gallon seems to be stable now. Betta and 3 Endlers seem happy and healthy, eating and swimming well. All 5 neons, the apparent weakest of the bunch and the ones who had spots that started it all, are all gone (RIP, little guys). The 3 albino corys are acting better than before, probably because I am using an airstone periodically throughout the day, and have stopped adding more Ich X treatment, which, in conjunction with the high temp, etc seemed to really stress them out. 

-It sounds like you are all recommending that I use an airstone along with the HOB filter ALL the time? I haven't kept it on full time because it seems to add so much movement to the tank, which is only 14 gallons with 2 sources of movement now, that seems to offer the fish less places to just "chill" without having to deal with a current. Am I wrong, do you think? Is that ok for them - to always have to be moving/fighting current if you're in the middle/upper portion?

-Snail: I thought  he was dead yesterday because he was hanging half out of his shell for hours yesterday and stayed out when I picked him up. But when I put him back he eventually went back in. He has been in and out (so, alive!), but not straying from his spot. So I'm changing out his water 25-30% at a time to get rid of the meds and not mess TOO much with the water parameters, and will continue to do that daily for a bit. 

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/19/2022 at 5:32 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

(Also that garlic will stink up the tank room, and I got punched in the face with garlic smell every time I opened the lid.  P.U.  Husband walking in the room like, hey, did you make spaghetti?  I'm like, oh, uhhhh.. yeahhh... but I already ate it.  🤣)

LOOOOOL

On 8/19/2022 at 5:32 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I don't think I changed any media either.

I definitely didn't change any media.  Never do unless something real bad happens.  The worms had me considering it, but never swapped it out yet. Especially when the worms are IN THE MEDIA.

On 8/19/2022 at 7:02 AM, Terri57 said:

So, what, I would need to find another dechlorinator that doesn't have that stuff in it for next time, I guess? I do have another one in my fridge - I'll check it out.

Yes.  It's not easy to find one.  I believe some of the more "common" ones might be usable, but I can't verify what's in the bottle very easily.  I tried to search for a list and it was not easy to find.  There is a video of Cory and Lamont discussing the topic that I can find if you need me to.  Here is a thread on the topic as well:

 

On 8/19/2022 at 7:02 AM, Terri57 said:

Update on the tanks:

-The 14 gallon seems to be stable now. Betta and 3 Endlers seem happy and healthy, eating and swimming well. All 5 neons, the apparent weakest of the bunch and the ones who had spots that started it all, are all gone (RIP, little guys). The 3 albino corys are acting better than before, probably because I am using an airstone periodically throughout the day, and have stopped adding more Ich X treatment, which, in conjunction with the high temp, etc seemed to really stress them out. 

-It sounds like you are all recommending that I use an airstone along with the HOB filter ALL the time? I haven't kept it on full time because it seems to add so much movement to the tank, which is only 14 gallons with 2 sources of movement now, that seems to offer the fish less places to just "chill" without having to deal with a current. Am I wrong, do you think? Is that ok for them - to always have to be moving/fighting current if you're in the middle/upper portion?

-Snail: I thought  he was dead yesterday because he was hanging half out of his shell for hours yesterday and stayed out when I picked him up. But when I put him back he eventually went back in. He has been in and out (so, alive!), but not straying from his spot. So I'm changing out his water 25-30% at a time to get rid of the meds and not mess TOO much with the water parameters, and will continue to do that daily for a bit. 

1.  Yes it will be stressful.  It might have been other reasons for the losses as mentioned above.  You also could still have ich in the tank in the substrate waiting to hatch.
2.  You don't have to run the airstone all the time, but it definitely is useful to have in the tank.  You can hook it up to a ziss airstone and metal gang valve and be able to fine tune the flow / turbulence.  This is likely mandatory if you add an airstone to a betta tank if your pump is just too strong.   We have seen a few bettas have fin rot as a result of the stress from water being too turbulent, so I wouldn't recommend adding one in the case of that situation.  While you are treating for meds, it is generally a good idea to have an airstone because of how it changes the viscosity of the water.  If you have a concern about a specific fish behavior please feel free to share a video of the fish in motion.
3. Definitely tough.  If you need to run carbon for 1-2 weeks as well, that might be helpful.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I use this one when I’m not using prime. I only use prime if I’m having trouble with ammonia or something. This stuff is cheaper, and I just seem to have overbought on it so I’m using it up. Also if you go this route you want AquaSafe “plus” because I don’t think the regular AquaSafe neutralizes chlorAMINE.

[Terri57]

OMG, that's the one I have in my fridge. 😃

I'll get an adjustable gang valve. Thank you!

I tried uploading a video of my tanks, btw, but it's not obvious how to do it, so...pictures it is! Lol!

(And the garlic thing is SO funny! Don't think my hubs would appreciate our living room smelling like garlic unless there's pasta coming.)

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/19/2022 at 10:02 AM, Terri57 said:

I'm still learning this platform and apparently I can't reply to a specific post, so here I go replying to all. I know you can stick quotes in here (I tried that - you may have noted the empty "quote" box somewhere above. LOL!) but have to figure this out. I'm a teacher in my last 5 days of summer vacation, and not digging the idea of reading about how to master this format yet. I will though!

To quote a whole post, go to the bottom of it and click Quote. 
 

To quote a sentence or several words, highlight the words and click quote in the pop up box.

To share a video, upload it to the YouTube app, then share the YouTube link here.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Terri57]

Ugh! Just did another water change in the 14 gallon to get the nitrites out from the dead neon (30% yesterday and 30% today) and now I see one of my endlers is on the bottom definitely not feeling well. Airstone in, other adult endler is great, and (so sad) trying to coax the sick one to get up and swim with him, and the baby endler (he was a bonus because the guy at the fish store couldn't get him out of the net, haha!) is doing great - poking around the top of the heater nibbling on whatever he's getting off of it. I'm hoping he bounces back. He was good yesterday, and DURING today's water change I saw him swimming up near the filter. I count all the fish multiple times during water changes because they jump out so fast (lost an adult endler the day I put them in, before I knew they were jumpers!)

Oooh, ok. I don't have a youtube account. I mean, I do to watch them, but not to post on it.