A question, I probably already know the answer to, switching water conditions in my "plant dump" tank

[Scott Stevenson]

I have a 20g tank that previously held cold water, low pH, soft water fish. The tank was fully cycled and might still be, in a low key way. I have some pest snails in it right now and I also have started ghost feeding the tank tiny amounts of Hikari freeze dried daphnia. Currently I have Pogostemon, Pothos and a small amount of  regrowth Jave fern being kept under the previously mentioned parameters. I add ferts on a weekly basis and there are signs of some brown algae growth.

I want to start preparing the tank for Platys, meaning I will start heating the tank and bumping up the pH and the hardness. I want to leave the plants in place as they are starting to look good. Am I correct in assuming, that I will have to gradually change the water parameters in order to not shock the plants too much?

I'm not too worried about the Pothos, it's pretty hardy, but I worry that I will lose the headway that I'm starting to see on the other plants.

[Odd Duck]

On 2/4/2022 at 6:43 PM, Scott Stevenson said:

I have a 20g tank that previously held cold water, low pH, soft water fish. The tank was fully cycled and might still be, in a low key way. I have some pest snails in it right now and I also have started ghost feeding the tank tiny amounts of Hikari freeze dried daphnia. Currently I have Pogostemon, Pothos and a small amount of  regrowth Jave fern being kept under the previously mentioned parameters. I add ferts on a weekly basis and there are signs of some brown algae growth.

I want to start preparing the tank for Platys, meaning I will start heating the tank and bumping up the pH and the hardness. I want to leave the plants in place as they are starting to look good. Am I correct in assuming, that I will have to gradually change the water parameters in order to not shock the plants too much?

I'm not too worried about the Pothos, it's pretty hardy, but I worry that I will lose the headway that I'm starting to see on the other plants.

There are very few plants that are super sensitive to parameter changes.  As long as you aren’t disturbing roots, if you just start doing weekly 25% water changes, you should be pretty safe, even for Crypts, and they’re about the most sensitive commonly kept plant to water param changes.  Depending on which Pogo species you’re talking about they should also be safe with weekly changes as above.

The pothos won’t care one bit and the Java fern is very unlikely to care.  You should be able to take the water temp up by a couple degrees per day and still be very safe as long as you don’t need to jump 10 degrees or so.  I would adjust a couple degrees every other day to make that big a jump, but 4-6 degrees in 3-4 days, you should be just fine.

I would probably start blind feeding something a bit more substantial than the freeze dried Daphnia.  There isn’t a ton of substance to those and they float like nobody’s business, and they’re not likely to stimulate your BB’s nearly as much as your fertilizer is already doing.  Something sinking is likely to be better for blind feeding since there’s always BB’s in your substrate that you can get going quicker by getting food down there.

Since you’ve been fertilizing, your BB’s are still active, but may not be at the levels you need for adding fish.  You could always try an ammonia test since you don’t have fish in there but I’d start with quarter dose since you have snails in the tank.  Treat it a bit like a fishless cycle and see how the tank responds.  I’d bet between fertilizer and snails, you’re not in bad shape at all.

Check parameters to get baselines, then try a 1/4 dose and check parameters in 24 hours.  If everything converts and looks good, try a 1/2 dose and check parameters again.  If all good and nitrogenous wastes are moving through the cycle like they should (and snails are OK), try a full dose and see what happens.  If everything converts quickly, you’re golden.

If you don’t see the numbers you expect after any dose, then water change if needed and slow down on dosing, or you could just choose to give it a bit more time with heavier blind feeding.  Which ever you’re more comfortable doing.  The only wrong way would be to just throw a bunch of fish in at once and you obviously know not to do that.

Lots of us have gotten away with crazy changes on emergent basis but it’s clearly not the right way to do things.  I’ll admit to being an offender in that regard, but I heavily overfilter with loads of well-seasoned sponge filters, tend to blind feed everything to maintain my BB’s, and feed light for a bit after adding fish to my QT tanks.  🤷🏻‍♀️ Do as I say, not as I do?  I’d bet your BB’s will pop right back into shape with a well aged tank of plants.

[Scott Stevenson]

@Odd DuckThanks so much for this info, it is clear and specific, great stuff!

[Odd Duck]

On 2/4/2022 at 7:29 PM, Scott Stevenson said:

@Odd DuckThanks so much for this info, it is clear and specific, great stuff!

I do tend to word vomit a bit, especially either late night with insomnia or like now when I’m stir crazy home recovering from COVID.  Hope at least some of it helps you are someone else.  👍🏻

[Scott Stevenson]

On 2/4/2022 at 8:24 PM, Odd Duck said:

I do tend to word vomit a bit, especially either late night with insomnia or like now when I’m stir crazy home recovering from COVID.  Hope at least some of it helps you are someone else.  👍🏻

I sincerely mean it when I say; all the info you gave me was exactly the kind of info that I was looking for. The knowledge that you so graciously shared would have taken me months and probably years of trial and error to accumulate as a newer fishkeeper.

The only other thing I could hope for, would have been for you to touch on how adding pH (crushed coral) and hardness (Seachem, Equilibrium) would effect the plants. Would you recommend slowly adding over time or is it okay to do it, more or less, all at once?

[Torrey]

On 2/4/2022 at 8:22 PM, Scott Stevenson said:

The only other thing I could hope for, would have been for you to touch on how adding pH (crushed coral) and hardness (Seachem, Equilibrium) would effect the plants. Would you recommend slowly adding over time or is it okay to do it, more or less, all at once?

I have kept tanks with widely different needs in parameters, and my biggest learning experience to share, is avoid having to adjust/chase parameters (pH) as much as possible. 

What is your water out of the tap, and I can adjust information accordingly. 

Odd Duck nailed it, with 25% each week. If you are needing to doctor your source water, that may shift some recommendations. 

[Odd Duck]

On 2/4/2022 at 9:22 PM, Scott Stevenson said:

I sincerely mean it when I say; all the info you gave me was exactly the kind of info that I was looking for. The knowledge that you so graciously shared would have taken me months and probably years of trial and error to accumulate as a newer fishkeeper.

The only other thing I could hope for, would have been for you to touch on how adding pH (crushed coral) and hardness (Seachem, Equilibrium) would effect the plants. Would you recommend slowly adding over time or is it okay to do it, more or less, all at once?

Oh, I didn’t take it like you were being sarcastic or smart Alec, that’s all me.  😉   I’m glad that you can appreciate the info, but I recognize I do get a bit carried away and I just can’t help myself but be flippant sometimes.  😆 🤷🏻‍♀️ I’m ridiculously thick skinned, anyway, especially on a forum, even though this one is the nicest you’ll ever find anywhere.  I wasn't kidding about being stir crazy!  I’m a terrible patient and been in bed (essentially confined to one room) since Monday afternoon when I tested positive and they basically had to kick me out of work (I had stuff that wasn’t done and patients to look after!).

I’m not a pH expert despite far too many hours of all sorts of chemistry under my belt.  What are your tap water parameters?  And what are your goal water parameters and why?  That’s where to start.  Your current tank parameters matter less to the equation since you don’t currently have fish in there.  As long as it’s only plants and snails, as long as your water changes will be taking you the right direction, you don’t need to worry much about using crushed coral, etc.  Chasing pH can be very frustrating and usually isn’t necessary.

Crushed coral can only shift already hard water by a little bit (there’s only just so much room to go if your water’s already hard).  If your tap water’s soft, then you need to decide how far you want to change it and why.  If you need to hit specific parameters for a particular species, then investigate the lower limit of that species or see if someone in your area already has that species adapted to your parameters.

The most I usually do is add a baggie of crushed coral or a chunk of cuttlefish shell to a snail heavy tank or filter if the snail shells are looking bad, but that’s often a calcium issue only, not necessarily pH, and better solved with nutrition.  I’m kind of terrible about testing tanks unless I have a very specific goal I need to meet.  I do have RODI water and very high pH, hard tap water so I mostly roughly mix my tap with my RO to get me closer to neutral and not so liquid rock status, but I don’t really worry about it after that.

We got the RODI system because my hubby wanted a saltwater tank.  He changed his mind, but I’m still putting it to use.  I am planning to get some more pH sensitive species in the near future and hope to breed them, so the RODI will get more use and I’ll have to test more for them.

So, tell me the “story” about your tap and your goals and why you’re worried about your current parameters not being OK.

[Scott Stevenson]

Lol @Torrey @Odd Duck well now I will have to give you my introduction to fishkeeping backstory to embarrassingly explain why I don't specifically know the parameters of my tap water and indeed my current tanks.

My wife got a position as a elementary school librarian and in doing so became the default owner of the fish tank there. My wife is not the put your hands in a fish tank and deal with fish waste and algae type. She asked me if I would "help" her with it. The tank already had goldfish and a pleco when my wife got the gig. It was very clear from the amount of algae in the tank that it was well seasoned. It was also clear that the only water maintenance the tank was getting was tap water and Wal-mart level water conditioner. I got my hands on a 30g tank (the fish were not that big yet) and brought it home so that the fish could "over summer" at our house (the school aquarium was not in our town). I cycled the new tank by using gravel and stones from my wife's tank. I knew that the goldfish and pleco did not need warm water and that they also didn't need high pH or hardness. The fish thrived in my tank. The fish went back to the school tank this new school year and did very well with just conditioned tap water and high quality food that I brought in.

After her fish went back in the fall, I replaced them in my 30g with fish that I knew would like the same parameters; albino BN plecos, Julli cory and dwarf chain loaches. So why do I tell you all this? Because I don't know exactly what my tap water parameters are but I understand them to be generally low pH and low hardness. I have to be pretty frugal in what I spend on buying for my tanks. Even though I have testing strips on my wish list and know they are important, there has always been other things higher on the priority list. I have thus far opted to maintain my tanks by insuring a very good water cycle, using live plants to keep things stable and using high quality food along with good filtration.

So currently, I want to add some new fish to my other tank that only has plants (that much you already know). Mostly to make the cycle more robust. I'm not worried about my parameters per se. but in eventually adding the platys, I'll have to change parameters of pH and hardness somewhat. Platys as I understand from what I've read are still pretty forgiving on pH but may need some hardness to stabilize the pH. I am not currently ready to add the fish, as we have already discussed and would not do so until I did test the water but I was just more wanting to understand what elevating the pH and hardness along with the temp increase would do to my plants, how i should spread it out and how to go about it sensibly. Odd Duck gave me great advice on the temp and how to start ramping up the BB again and I was just wondering what the thoughts on how to raise ph and hardness for the best benefit to the plants would be. longer term I will probably want to add a few more pH sensitive fish that could still be tank mates with the platys.

Lol I know that this doesn't give you all the info you need to be specific but there you go😄 

[Odd Duck]

Now I get where you’re coming from!  OK, to start, check to see if your city publishes their water report on-line.  There will be some basic info right there with pH, hardness, etc.  If they don’t, ask if you can get a copy of it.  It may not match your tap absolutely perfectly, but it’s going to be so darn close that it makes no difference.  Next, skip the test strips since drop testing is far more economical in the long run.  Get the API Master Test Kit when you are ready to start testing.  It will cost more up front but pay for itself on cost per test in the long run.

Next step is to take a sample of your tank water to the nearest fish store that does free testing (most, but not all do, call ahead and ask) and have them run the tests to see where you’re at currently.  You may need to ask specifically for hardness and pH depending on if they do drop testing or strip.  Ask at your favorite fish store what their parameters are (if you’re really lucky they will both be the same fish store).  Take notes in your phone on all these numbers, by the way, sooooo much easier to keep track.  Then ask how their platys do with those parameters.  My guess is they’ll tell you they do just fine since platys come from fairly hard water but they tolerate a massively wide range of hardness and pH.

Once you have your own test kit, you can decide on other species and how well they fit with your parameters.  Most fish can adapt to most parameters as long as the params are reasonably stable.  Whether eggs hatch well or whether the fish will breed may be a different story.

[Torrey]

On 2/4/2022 at 10:52 PM, Scott Stevenson said:

Lol @Torrey @Odd Duck well now I will have to give you my introduction to fishkeeping backstory to embarrassingly explain why I don't specifically know the parameters of my tap water and indeed my current tanks.

My wife got a position as a elementary school librarian and in doing so became the default owner of the fish tank there. My wife is not the put your hands in a fish tank and deal with fish waste and algae type. She asked me if I would "help" her with it. The tank already had goldfish and a pleco when my wife got the gig. It was very clear from the amount of algae in the tank that it was well seasoned. It was also clear that the only water maintenance the tank was getting was tap water and Wal-mart level water conditioner. I got my hands on a 30g tank (the fish were not that big yet) and brought it home so that the fish could "over summer" at our house (the school aquarium was not in our town). I cycled the new tank by using gravel and stones from my wife's tank. I knew that the goldfish and pleco did not need warm water and that they also didn't need high pH or hardness. The fish thrived in my tank. The fish went back to the school tank this new school year and did very well with just conditioned tap water and high quality food that I brought in.

After her fish went back in the fall, I replaced them in my 30g with fish that I knew would like the same parameters; albino BN plecos, Julli cory and dwarf chain loaches. So why do I tell you all this? Because I don't know exactly what my tap water parameters are but I understand them to be generally low pH and low hardness. I have to be pretty frugal in what I spend on buying for my tanks. Even though I have testing strips on my wish list and know they are important, there has always been other things higher on the priority list. I have thus far opted to maintain my tanks by insuring a very good water cycle, using live plants to keep things stable and using high quality food along with good filtration.

So currently, I want to add some new fish to my other tank that only has plants (that much you already know). Mostly to make the cycle more robust. I'm not worried about my parameters per se. but in eventually adding the platys, I'll have to change parameters of pH and hardness somewhat. Platys as I understand from what I've read are still pretty forgiving on pH but may need some hardness to stabilize the pH. I am not currently ready to add the fish, as we have already discussed and would not do so until I did test the water but I was just more wanting to understand what elevating the pH and hardness along with the temp increase would do to my plants, how i should spread it out and how to go about it sensibly. Odd Duck gave me great advice on the temp and how to start ramping up the BB again and I was just wondering what the thoughts on how to raise ph and hardness for the best benefit to the plants would be. longer term I will probably want to add a few more pH sensitive fish that could still be tank mates with the platys.

Lol I know that this doesn't give you all the info you need to be specific but there you go😄 

That's exceptionally helpful. 

For short term, see if your lfs tests water, then take in tap water (labeled "tap") and tank water (labeled which tank) and that will help fine tune the recommendations. 

All livebearers need calcium. Livebearers that don't get adequate calcium develop curved spines and other complications.

With the ability to regularly test, one of the easiest ways to add calcium is to put crushed coral in a mesh bag, and either lay it in the aquarium (sponge filters and UGF work great this way), or lay it in your HOB.

Wondershell is another option (that shrimp and snails approve of) or even cuttlebone (like for birds).

You can look up the pH for calcium, and as long as you are staying consistent with adding more crushed coral or cuttlebone (and always adding more as soon as ~ half has dissolved into the water, chemistry and physics both say that the water column can't get any more alkaline (higher pH) than calcium's pH.

The snail's shells will get stronger as you raise the pH and add more calcium to the water column. 

On 2/5/2022 at 12:28 AM, Odd Duck said:

Now I get where you’re coming from!  OK, to start, check to see if your city publishes their water report on-line.  There will be some basic info right there with pH, hardness, etc.  If they don’t, ask if you can get a copy of it.  It may not match your tap absolutely perfectly, but it’s going to be so darn close that it makes no difference.  Next, skip the test strips since drop testing is far more economical in the long run.  Get the API Master Test Kit when you are ready to start testing.  It will cost more up front but pay for itself on cost per test in the long run.

Next step is to take a sample of your tank water to the nearest fish store that does free testing (most, but not all do, call ahead and ask) and have them run the tests to see where you’re at currently.  You may need to ask specifically for hardness and pH depending on if they do drop testing or strip.  Ask at your favorite fish store what their parameters are (if you’re really lucky they will both be the same fish store).  Take notes in your phone on all these numbers, by the way, sooooo much easier to keep track.  Then ask how their platys do with those parameters.  My guess is they’ll tell you they do just fine since platys come from fairly hard water but they tolerate a massively wide range of hardness and pH.

Once you have your own test kit, you can decide on other species and how well they fit with your parameters.  Most fish can adapt to most parameters as long as the params are reasonably stable.  Whether eggs hatch well or whether the fish will breed may be a different story.

Jinx, we were typing same info at the same time, with slightly different delivery 😅

[Scott Stevenson]

Hey folks, once again, great info. thanks for sharing your knowledge! I'll update you when I get my water parameters checked.

[Scott Stevenson]

@Odd Duck @Torrey Ok I have at least found out my towns water is 7.3 pH and 15 gH. based on this I may not have to do anything but raise the temp in the tank in order to add some platys...at least according to what I've read  I of course would also get a water test kit before getting the new fish. What do you think?

[Torrey]

That looks far more livebearer friendly!

[Scott Stevenson]

Yes for sure and that will make things much easier when I do add platys, but keep in mind the original question was always about the plants and how they would react to parameter changes, if I had needed to do so. I guess my ultimate conclusion is; if I had to change the parameters on a tank with established plants, I would do so at a gradual pace. From what Odd Duck said, the plants I have probably wouldn't be overly affected, but I would still probably gradually  work to alter one parameter at a time, in this hypothetical situation. Maybe temp. first and then add crushed coral. As you pointed out the pH will only go so high anyway and the coral will only leach into the water as needed to a certain point. Then maybe bump up the gH. This would all be more applicable if and when I added something like Mollys to the mix...or at least that is my current understanding.

Anyway this thread has been enlightening and adding a water test kit is in my future...at some point.

[Odd Duck]

I’d be surprised if you need to do anything but a few water changes like we first talked about.  It’s likely your plants may have softened the water using up nutrients, so do the water changes and ferts and get your test kit as soon as you can so,you know where you stand and where you need to go (if anywhere).