This Tank is taking FOREVER to Cycle!

[laritheloud]

On 1/13/2022 at 9:10 PM, Isaac M said:

Hi @laritheloud, have you heard of Dr. Tim Hovanec? I would suggest reading some of his stuff or listening to him talk about a fishless cycle. He created Dr. Tims aquatics which is known for their bacteria in a bottle and ammonium chloride solution. I used his method and products to successfully fishless cycle my reef tank quickly. 

From what I learned from him and my own fishless cycle, you typically do not want to go to high with the initial ammonia concentration. I used 2ppm. The purpose for this is that you want to keep the concentration of ammonia and nitrite below 5ppm or else you will stall your cycle which may be happening to you. 

The bacteria that converts nitrite to nitrate typically takes the longest to establish so if you constantly add more ammonia or start off with a lot of ammonia, you will end up with a nitrite concentration over 5ppm causing the cycle to stall. It is not necessary to have a constant source of ammonia either.

I imagine your kh dropped because the high concentrations of ammonia and nitrite and ultimately nitrates are causing your water to acidify due to the nitrogen cycle. The issue with that as well is that once the ph drops below 7 as it will with your kh dropping, your bacteria will have a harder time establishing. 

There is a lot to unpack here but ultimately I would recommend doing a 50% water change daily until you get your ammonia and nitrite concentrations somewhere in the 1-3ppm range, or even just to get your nitrate in a fish safe zone. Then you can begin again adding minimal ammonia (1-2ppm) and letting that convert to nitrite, then waiting for that nitrite to convert to nitrate. After that you can add another 1ppm of ammonia just to check if the cycle is working properly, if it is, you are cycled!  

Anyways, this can get somewhat complex so I just stick to using seeded media and plants in my own tanks 😂

Good luck and let us know if you need any additional help! You can do this! 

I've actually read his stuff and honestly tried BOTH methods for 3 weeks each. I tried bombing the tank with ammonia to see if it'd grow a bigger colony -- sure, ammonia's disappearing pretty much as soon as it hits the tank, but nitrite? Nope. Then I changed out the water, started dosing from baseline 0, started at 2ppm, watched nitrite spike then fall back down to 0.5ppm and stay there for 24 hours straight. It's enormously frustrating.

The only -- *only* difference -- between this tank and my previous tanks was that my 20 gallon long is being cycled with my winter city water source, which has a rock-bottom GH of 0 to 1 dGH. My spring and summer tap water was 10 dGH, and cycled very quickly even with 4ppm ammonia dosed. Is cycling quicker in harder water? Is there any scientific literature about this? I did add wondershells to the tank for remineralizing and bumped up dGH to 8, and I've had to monitor my KH and PH for crashes throughout.

[Isaac M]

I see, I would still give his method a chance for longer than 3 weeks as this process can easily take 4 weeks or more. He does say though that higher ph water with more minerals is beneficial for the bacteria. Do you think that this could be a test kit issue? I know sometimes there can be issues with test kits and water conditioners or ammonia solutions. 

[MarkM]

Personally when I’ve done fishless cycles from scratch,  I dose ammonia up to 5ppm until nitrites show up and then up to 2ppm daily until cycle is complete. Then I do a 90% water change to flush the nitrates out. 

I was curious about optimum nitrobacter growth conditions and for what it’s worth it looks like high temp and ph is the way to go.

from wikipedia

According to Grundmann, Nitrobacterseem to grow optimally at 38 °C and at a pH of 7.9, but Holt states that Nitrobacter grow optimally at 28 °C and within a pH range of 5.8 to 8.5, although they have a pH optima between 7.6 and 7.8.

[laritheloud]

On 1/13/2022 at 9:56 PM, Isaac M said:

I see, I would still give his method a chance for longer than 3 weeks as this process can easily take 4 weeks or more. He does say though that higher ph water with more minerals is beneficial for the bacteria. Do you think that this could be a test kit issue? I know sometimes there can be issues with test kits and water conditioners or ammonia solutions. 

My test kits appear to be accurate. Nitrites read as 0 in my other established tanks. I think my frustration is stemming from 'oh, those 0.5ppm nitrites should clear overnight--' and I'm setting myself up for disappointment with that mentality. 🤪 It's just bizarre that it's not stuck on a high spike, but on a NEAR clearing of nitrites...

I'm definitely staying on top of pH, as my water is alkaline regardless of dGH. It seems like the winter aquifers have a natural softener mechanism going on before it reaches the municipal wells, so I get that 'awesome' combination of high-PH no-GH water.....

I never thought I'd long to get my hard water back, but here I am!

On 1/13/2022 at 9:58 PM, mpm42 said:

Personally when I’ve done fishless cycles from scratch,  I dose ammonia up to 5ppm until nitrites show up and then up to 2ppm daily until cycle is complete. Then I do a 90% water change to flush the nitrates out. 

I was curious about optimum nitrobacter growth conditions and for what it’s worth it looks like high temp and ph is the way to go.

from wikipedia

According to Grundmann, Nitrobacterseem to grow optimally at 38 °C and at a pH of 7.9, but Holt states that Nitrobacter grow optimally at 28 °C and within a pH range of 5.8 to 8.5, although they have a pH optima between 7.6 and 7.8.

I have my temp set at 82F right now, and I actually had the temp lower before I remembered to crank up the heater. That's my bad, I was so jazzed by the 'low nitrites it must be over soon!' and then the continual disappointment of it not being over soon to remember. 🤪 I KNOW it'll happen, I just figure I can vent it out here.

[Isaac M]

I see, but I guess what I am referring to is that if you are using some sort of ammonia in a bottle, it is different than ammonia you are getting naturally from your established aquariums. I am just throwing that out there as sometimes people will get a 0.5ppm ammonia reading after dosing their water conditioner. Especially within the first 48-24 hours. 

And yeah its understandable, I would be frustrated too because it should be happening so I dont think that is a totally unrealistic mindset 😂