Safe-t-sorb - lessons learned with pH, KH, and ammonia

[Gideyon]

I have a couple of threads related to my 10 gallon anoxic filtration experiment. It took some unexpected turns before I could even start cycling, and it mainly had to do with my substrate of choice, Safe T Sorb. 

I thought I'd share my experience in a new post.  Though it is anecdotal, and not scientific, maybe it'll help someone who's searching the web. 

Setup: 10 gallon with UGF, 3" of Safe T Sorb, laterite sprinkled in the first inch. 

First issue: KH and pH crashed.  Theory was that the baked clay substrate was absorbing the carbonate, and swinging the pH. I added crushed coral but it wasn't doing enough. 

Second issue: after I got the pH to be around 6.5, I added Dr Tim's ammonia. 10 drops - 0.5ppm.   30 more drops, no change.  Another 30 more drops, no change. My theory is that the substrate was absorbing the ammonia too. 

My solution:  Overdose with carbonate by adding 2.5 tsp of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate).   My thinking was that if I give the substrate more than enough carbonate to absorb, it can't absorb anything more. 

Results:  Ph went to 7.5, KH went through the roof. A day later, pH was the same, KH went down to about 8dKH.

I then added 10 drops of ammonia.  Tested to be 1ppm ammonia.   Added another 10, 2ppm.

I have low kh out of the tap.  I think if you have high enough kh to begin with, this wouldn't be a problem after a few water changes.  

[Fish Folk]

On 8/29/2021 at 6:26 PM, Gideyon said:

I have a couple of threads related to my 10 gallon anoxic filtration experiment. It took some unexpected turns before I could even start cycling, and it mainly had to do with my substrate of choice, Safe T Sorb. 

I thought I'd share my experience in a new post.  Though it is anecdotal, and not scientific, maybe it'll help someone who's searching the web. 

Setup: 10 gallon with UGF, 3" of Safe T Sorb, laterite sprinkled in the first inch. 

First issue: KH and pH crashed.  Theory was that the baked clay substrate was absorbing the carbonate, and swinging the pH. I added crushed coral but it wasn't doing enough. 

Second issue: after I got the pH to be around 6.5, I added Dr Tim's ammonia. 10 drops - 0.5ppm.   30 more drops, no change.  Another 30 more drops, no change. My theory is that the substrate was absorbing the ammonia too. 

My solution:  Overdose with carbonate by adding 2.5 tsp of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate).   My thinking was that if I give the substrate more than enough carbonate to absorb, it can't absorb anything more. 

Results:  Ph went to 7.5, KH went through the roof. A day later, pH was the same, KH went down to about 8dKH.

I then added 10 drops of ammonia.  Tested to be 1ppm ammonia.   Added another 10, 2ppm.

I have low kh out of the tap.  I think if you have high enough kh to begin with, this wouldn't be a problem after a few water changes.  

Interesting! I’m wondering out loud… would safe-t-sorb be a way to render low pH + low KH for finicky Amazon fish breeding?

[Gideyon]

On 9/6/2021 at 8:00 AM, Fish Folk said:

Interesting! I’m wondering out loud… would safe-t-sorb be a way to render low pH + low KH for finicky Amazon fish breeding?

If the theory is true, only short term.  And only if you have a crazy amount of it (I have almost 2.5 gallons of it).  Eventually it'll get soaked up and won't absorb carbonate anymore. 

If not, then I need to feed it carbonate on a regular basis. 

[Tihshho]

Take a look at Akadama, that bonsai substrate is a baked clay material like Safe-T-Sorb and is commonly used in Crystal Shrimp tanks. It is known for eating away KH and GH initially due to cation exchange between the water column and the substrate. You can take pure RO/DI buffer it completely to the right level and get a TDS of say 150, fill the tank, and check it 24 hours later and see a TDS of 20. What you need to do with these substrates, and even some active aquarium substrates, is to setup the tank and buffer and let it run 24 hours and test. Once you test you go through and buffer again. The cation exchange is limited and once the substrate is maxed it will strop pulling down you KH and GH.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Tihshho

[Gideyon]

On 9/6/2021 at 10:03 PM, Tihshho said:

Take a look at Akadama, that bonsai substrate is a baked clay material like Safe-T-Sorb and is commonly used in Crystal Shrimp tanks. It is known for eating away KH and GH initially due to cation exchange between the water column and the substrate. You can take pure RO/DI buffer it completely to the right level and get a TDS of say 150, fill the tank, and check it 24 hours later and see a TDS of 20. What you need to do with these substrates, and even some active aquarium substrates, is to setup the tank and buffer and let it run 24 hours and test. Once you test you go through and buffer again. The cation exchange is limited and once the substrate is maxed it will strop pulling down you KH and GH.

Geez, where were you when I was trying to figure this mystery out! 🙂

[Tihshho]

Running around, here and there. Haha. Well at least you got some information to line up your hypothesis!

[Gideyon]

So do you think the substrate was also absorbing the ammonia?  And if so, what happens to it?   Does it just reside there until something takes it out? Eg plant roots? Does it get converted to something else?

 

I put about 70 drops of ammonia and it barely registered.  It was only after putting the baking soda that 20 drops got me 2ppm ammonia. 

[Tihshho]

I don't know details on that front. I know that when you're running a tank and if you have too much chemical filtration it can pull out the ammonia you add and that's why it's recommended to remove chemical filtration during some of these fishless cycle procedures. Where the ammonia goes, nobody (more so me because somebody does) knows! It might act like Poly Filter and bind it up, but if it's able to be leached out I have no idea. 

[pomlady]

Hi an old post I know but looking for help if possible. 

I watched a few of Dr. Novak's videos and setting up an anoxic filter like he mentions. I bought the supplies to make the filter and Saf t Sorb yesterday.  I can't find Laterite anywhere locally and wondering if liquid iron spread over the saf t sorb would work? 

Or can other types of things like trace elements with iron for hydroponic growing be put over the saf t sorb and if so "how much is too much?" 

I plan to cap it with Aqua Natural Blk Diamond.  

I have also seen a few videos where people have used saf t sorb without an underground  filter and have had luck and really like the natural look of the stuff.  

Dr. Novak never mentioned the crashes and a few videos didn't either or I might not have gone down this rabbit hole!

I have a 50 gal tank with 4 fancy goldfish to add and planted.

I am hoping to add them once this is up and running and putting the old bottom substrate and Fluval C4 on the old 20 gallon tank in/on the 50.

Would I just be better to forgo the Saf t Sorb and just do the Aqua Natural Blk Diamond, would that defeat the purpose of good plant growth, less water changes for the fish?

Newbie here and just trying to do it right.

Any help would sure be appreciated.  Thanks

[Gideyon]

You brought me out of my hibernation.  

I can't really answer your question. But Novak has mentioned that people have reported pH crashes but he's never experienced it. 

As for laterite, are you able to buy from Amazon?   That's where I got mine.  

There was a video where he injected liquid iron into the substrate to "refuel" the iron after some time.  

I never got anoxic filtration to work.  Not sure if I'll try again. 

[pomlady]

On 10/4/2023 at 4:34 AM, Pepere said:

I use Safe T Sorb and I like it.  It makes it easy to plant stems into it and have them stay in place.  The deep brown color is not unappealing in its own right, though I capped mine with coarse black sand.  It is incredibly economical…

I also experienced it soaking up KH for about a week or so…. 
 

I have no idea about the anoxic filtration bit.  I am rather skeptical about it working, and if your tap water has no nitrates in it, I just dont see the benefit.  I conduct 50% water changes weekly because there are benefits to water changes besides nitrate reduction….  I find I battle algae much less with weekly water changes.  I set up mine with undergravel filtration plates and mesh bags of aquasoil scattered beneath the supstrate in the form of thin long logs of it.  I plant stems and roots between the bags.

I honestly don't see where fewer water changes provide the fish a benefit.

Thank you.  I am happy to hear you did Safe T Sorb, phew, kind of worried I made a big mistake although I did watch any you tunbes I could possibly find and there wasn't any real negatives. 

Do you have to dose your tank with fertilizer tabs?

I have a bottle of Seachem Flourish here and not sure when to start using it?

I live in Canada and could not find Laterite. 

Googling for any and all information I found a post regarding the Anoxic filters and was speaking to a person that had one up and running,  3 tanks actually and he said it worked great for him.  He used kitty litter though.  He said to replace the Laterite with a 500ml bottle of Seachem Iron.  I had just been to town for supplies and purchased a 250ml bottle, so poured that over the Safe T Sorb. I have no idea if that is okay but what I did. All new to me!

Then I put on about 2" of Aqu Natural Blk Quartz sand over that.

We don't have blasting sand where I live so I ended up buying Aqu Natural.  A lot more expensive but it does seem like very nice sand and I don't see or feel any sharp pieces like a few people have mentioned  online.

Tomorrow  I am filling the tank.

I am not relying on the anoxic filter to work by itself, kind of a supplement as I have a Fluval C4 that is on my small tank that has bio media in it, which is also going onto the 50.  It is supposedly good up to a 75 gallon tank.

Just not sure when to add the fish, I am thinking after testing for a few days and making sure the ph doesn't go nuts, then it should be safe?

I am hoping with 4 fancy goldfish that eventually I won't have to do weekly water changes, even biweekly would be better.  Hoping eventually for less algae and plants that grow well.  

Thanks for your replies

[pomlady]

Thank you.  You mention fertilizing?  I guess you mean something like Seachem Flourish that you put in the water?

I will be changing water just not as often I hope.  Right now doing it every third day.

Sounds like a nice system you are planning.

[pomlady]

On 10/7/2023 at 6:07 AM, Pepere said:

I use Easy Green all in one.  And because my tap water is very soft I add Seachem Equilibrium to add calcium and magnesium and it also adds plenty of potassium so that will never be a limiting nutrient and iron.   Easy Green is a bit week in Potassium and also limited in iron…

Thank you.  Our water is pretty soft too, spring water, 7ppm.  Good to know.

[Galabar]

My concern with Safe-T-Sorb, and other clay-based substrates is that they do break down. I have some very old Eco-Complete that I can move to new tanks.  It never breaks down.

Having said that, years ago (maybe 20), I did use kitty litter capped with sand for a planted tank.  So, using fired clay can work very well.

[Galabar]

After looking at some posts, after a couple of years it will turn to mud.  It will also break down almost immediately if you rub it between your fingers while wet.

Again, though, that might not be an issue. However, I wouldn't use it as a top layer.

[Galabar]

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/safe-t-sorb-experiment.51005/

Quote

The product remains hard, but will break apart if you take a pinch and really scrub it together.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Galabar

[onlywei]

Is there any difference between the Tractor Supply Safe-T-Sorb vs the Oil-Dri Safe-T-Sorb?

[Gideyon]

On 10/25/2023 at 1:01 PM, onlywei said:

Is there any difference between the Tractor Supply Safe-T-Sorb vs the Oil-Dri Safe-T-Sorb?
 

Oil dri is a different brand and product. Safe-t-sorb is a product of Ep minerals.

Are they the same?  Not sure. You'd have to check if it's the same clay and nothing else.