Billipo Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 I have three tanks. 29 gallon that has been cycled for at least 10 yrs - no water changes just top offs. Plants and rocks for hardscape. Two hang filters. (Ohio Natives - Central Mudminnows) 40 gallon that has been cycled for 8 months - Weekly 15% water changes. Plants, rocks, and wood for hardscape. One hanging filter, one canister filter. (So. American Tetras, Cory, Bolivian Rams, Ottos) 10 gallon that has been cycled for 2 months - no water changes just top offs. Plants, rocks, and wood for hardscape. Sponge filter (Endlers, Mystery Snails) Since tanks established all tanks Ammonium and Nitrites @ 0 ppm, Nitrates vary 0 - 5 ppm. pH consistently 7.6 for 10 and 40 gallon, but 29 gallon 6.0. Question is why the difference? Anyone else experience this pHenomenon? Same house (different rooms), same water source, same plants, rocks, ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 You may have reached a tipping point for your 29g. Gotten into what's called old tank syndrome. Where the amount of old organic matter and organic acids have leached out your carbonates faster than they are being replaced. Organics are great for the plants, but not necessarily for water chemistry. You can keep running there. the plants won't mind. but it depends on what the livestock are. guppies and snails would mind. Or you can add a kh buffer on a routine basis. Baking soda is cheapest. Seachem makes alkaline buffer. Or you can redo the tank, which nobody wants. 10-year-old tanks are very rare and special. Or you could do a couple of deep cleanings, not too much at one time. which I'm not sure you would want to do either. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepere Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 I would do Gh and KH tests for the tanks… I suspect you will see low KH in the 29, and not in the other two. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billipo Posted August 31 Author Share Posted August 31 On 8/31/2024 at 11:25 AM, Tony s said: You may have reached a tipping point for your 29g. Gotten into what's called old tank syndrome. Where the amount of old organic matter and organic acids have leached out your carbonates faster than they are being replaced. Organics are great for the plants, but not necessarily for water chemistry. You can keep running there. the plants won't mind. but it depends on what the livestock are. guppies and snails would mind. Or you can add a kh buffer on a routine basis. Baking soda is cheapest. Seachem makes alkaline buffer. Or you can redo the tank, which nobody wants. 10-year-old tanks are very rare and special. Or you could do a couple of deep cleanings, not too much at one time. which I'm not sure you would want to do either. Not interested in tear down. Plants doing great much better than the other 2 tanks. Fish are showing signs of age (and have lost food stalking tendencies thinking accustomed to regular feedings) and mudminnows can survive very extreme conditions, but no need to push limits. I am curious on baking soda add. Sounds cheap and easy! Any insight appreciated and I can try to do some research. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 On 8/31/2024 at 12:05 PM, Billipo said: am curious on baking soda add. Sounds cheap and easy! Any insight appreciated and I can try to do some research. I haven't used it. I have kh coming out my ears. I know it does it works very rapidly. Possibly too fast for some livestock. I'd just trial and error on the small side. @Pepere would have a better idea. Or you could switch up your livestock and get some of the very soft water species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWilk Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 Might be time to do some small water changes, 10-20% weekly with a little KH added if it’s reading zero. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 On 8/31/2024 at 10:51 AM, Billipo said: no water changes just top offs. Plants and rocks for hardscape. Two hang filters Actually pretty impressive. A lot of no change tanks including FF and Walstad's have issues before now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billipo Posted August 31 Author Share Posted August 31 On 8/31/2024 at 12:26 PM, Tony s said: Actually pretty impressive. A lot of no change tanks including FF and Walstad's have issues before now. I occasionally give a light rinse of filter media maybe twice a year per filter, one at a time. Before I started up the other tanks I used to discard tons of plants. Now wisely I use excess plants for other tanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepere Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 I would not go with baking soda until you know the tanks GH and KH. I would also determine your tap waters GH and Kh. It may well be that doing shallow waterchanges would be the better option, but unknown untill you know what you have in your tap and tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billipo Posted August 31 Author Share Posted August 31 Gonna go small water change option, but treating a little like - not broke don't fix. Here is the tank after I just did a 10% water change. Fish all hid! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billipo Posted September 1 Author Share Posted September 1 I took the water to a local box store to check water. Clerk said all tests (including kH and gH which I cannot test at home) were fine but got no reading for pH. Quite honestly the clerk wasn't that interested in answering any details about test results. I did a pH at home and I got 6.0 I'm going to do some more small water changes over next few weeks. Figure it couldn't hurt. Some research on mudminnow says preferred 6.5 -7.5 pH, but specimens can uniquely survive in as low as 3.5-5 pH (Per NANFA). They can also live through a freeze and in oxygen starved water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepere Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 On 9/1/2024 at 11:00 AM, Billipo said: Clerk said all tests (including kH and gH which I cannot test at home) were fine but got no reading for pH. Quite honestly the clerk wasn't that interested in answering any details about test results. I did a pH at home and I got 6.0 Well, “fine” doesnt communicate much… clerk might not have much knowledge about test results looking just for ammonia or nitrite… and hence not interested in discussing the other results and simply saying they are all “Fine”… API liquid test kit for GH and KH is under $10.00 on Amazon.com…. It has earned a place in my fish cabinet. on the PH, are you using the API liquid low range ph from the Master Test Kit? That only goes down to 6.0, so it could be 6.0, 5.8 or 4.0 and look exactly the same. You would have no idea what it actually is in that scenario. A tank that is water top up only over time can deplete KH and then the ph can drop quite low. Nitrates are on the acidic side and tannins and such can deplete kh and then the acids lowers ph…. I am guessing your tap water is a higher ph where tank ph in newer tanks is 7.6… weekly water changes of 2-3 gallons per water for several months would not be a bad idea. I am suspecting ph would rise over time with that treatment. Once it does frequency of water changes could diminish if you prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billipo Posted September 1 Author Share Posted September 1 On 9/1/2024 at 11:53 AM, Pepere said: on the PH, are you using the API liquid low range ph from the Master Test Kit? That only goes down to 6.0, so it could be 6.0, 5.8 or 4.0 and look exactly the same. You would have no idea what it actually is in that scenario. You may be right since I am using the API test kit. How I got in this situation, I minimize my interface with fish so they don't associate me with food, fear me or get accustomed to my presence so they act "more Natural". Kinda a unique and pleasant experience not to have fish beg for food when you observe them. Explains the lack of water changes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 On 9/1/2024 at 5:36 PM, Billipo said: How I got in this situation, I minimize my interface with fish so they don't associate me with food, fear me or get accustomed to my presence so they act "more Natural". Kinda a unique and pleasant experience not to have fish beg for food when you observe them. Explains the lack of water changes You could set up a permanent hose contraption. Where you could manipulate the water into and out of the tank without the fish associating it with your presence. As long as you have a valve at the tap end to prevent unwanted water movement. And have it firmly attached at the tank end so you don’t have to be present at the tank to change water. Just present at the tap end. More frequent changes would bring your water into better balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billipo Posted September 2 Author Share Posted September 2 (edited) On 9/1/2024 at 11:50 PM, Tony s said: You could set up a permanent hose contraption. Where you could manipulate the water into and out of the tank without the fish associating it with your presence. As long as you have a valve at the tap end to prevent unwanted water movement. And have it firmly attached at the tank end so you don’t have to be present at the tank to change water. Just present at the tap end. More frequent changes would bring your water into better balance. Permanent contraption installed! Never mentioned but tank is so old that it has an inoperative under gravel filter (old school). I put a small diameter rigid tube into the filter opening. I can add tubing to the rigid tube to siphon water as needed. I think this is a good plan to draw water from under substrate that might be more "stagnant". Thanks for the tip. Edited September 2 by Billipo 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 That sounds great! Just don’t forget the valve at the other end. It would be tragic to find the hose shifted and was able to siphon the tank with nobody around. But, yeah, that sounds great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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