guppies mysteriously dying at a rapid rate

[Andarina]

Hello,

I'm losing a guppy or catfish a day to a mysterious issue that presents a bit like dropsy, but also not. Summary here, details and tank specs below. I would love any help that can be offered.

Briefly, half the guppies in my 20L started bloating 4 days ago. Because my QT tank was already occupied with brand new baby corydoras and one additional new guppy, I removed the shrimp and snails to separate buckets and treated the 20L with Aq salt using these instructions: Aquarium Salt: How to Use It Properly for Treating Sick Fish. Since then, all but three of the guppies have died, and one of the remaining ones is in rough shape. I want to suss this out before the last of the fish are gone, especially bc this morning one of the wee corys in the QT tank was also dead with a swollen belly despite no contact (that I'm aware of) between the tanks.

Tank specs and detailed version (template borrowed from Fishlore):

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 20 gal long
How long has the tank been running? about 6 mo
Does it have a filter? Yes, Aquarium Coop sponge filter. The water level often dropped below the top of the spout though, resulting in less filtration than it should have been able to provide. I finally got a lid for it to prevent evaporation right before the guppies got sick. One of many things I didn't do as fast as I wished bc of chemo.
Does it have a heater? Yes
What is the water temperature? About 75F
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.) Before dropsy: 7 male guppies, 2 mystery snails, 1 nerite snail, 1 trumpet snail, about 12 blue cherry shrimp

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? Every 1-2 weeks
How much of the water do you change? 30-50%
What do you use to treat your water? Well water but I still use Seachem Prime
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? Substrate

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? I upgraded from a cycled 10 gal by bringing over the filter, media, and ornaments, and ran both filters for 1 month to establish the new filter
What do you use to test the water? API Master Kit, reading instructions every time
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
On Tues 7/2:
Ammonia: .25ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: btw 0-5 ppm, based on the color looks closer to 0 than 5
pH: 8.0-8.2 – this is what comes out of the well, I know it is high so I always acclimate new animals extremely slowly and as far as I can tell they thrive (ie reproduce)

GH: (coming out of the well) 17

KH: (coming out of the well) 11

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? Once per day
How much do you feed your fish? Enough for them to eat in about 2 min unless its a sinking wafer, then 1-2 so they're gone the next day
What brand of food do you feed your fish? Until a few months ago, mostly frozen brine shrimp or hikari algae wafers or shrimp cuisine. Since beginning chemo I ended up using tetra-min flakes bc it was less work than going upstairs to the freezer daily. But I wonder if that was bad for them as their color had faded a bit.
Do you feed frozen? 4-5 times a week (before and after chemo anyway)
Do you feed freeze-dried foods? I'm not sure

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? The 4 sick guppies are from March and June purchases, and a set I adopted last November, age unknown.
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? 5 days ago, Friday 6/28
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? Bloated bellies, reduced activity, lying on the floor a lot of the time as they got worse. One fish began to look like his skin was blistering or loosening on his back, whitened and knobbly.
Have you started any treatment for the illness? Activated charcoal pack in case of pollutants, Aq salt 1 tbsp/3 gal then upped to 1 tbsp/2 gal, plus fasting – just fed sparsely once for the healthy guppies to get a bit
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? No
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? Bloated bellies, reduced activity, lying on the floor a lot of the time as they got worse, the one fish with the knobbly skin.

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
(Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now)

On Friday 3 of 7 guppies presented with bloated bellies out of the blue. Did a 30% water change and treated with Aq salt 1 tbsp/3 gal. Next morning the bloating had gone down and activity was back up. By afternoon the bloating was back. Did a 10% water change and upped the salt concentration to 1 tbsp/2 gal (total, not additional). On Sunday morning, the bloating was down again although the sick fish remained a bit lethargic. The fish continued to look only mildly bloated on Monday but by afternoon 1 had died. Tuesday morning a second had also died after spending Monday huddling by the filter sponge. A fourth guppy began lying on the floor on Tues afternoon and was dead by Weds morning. The third sick one remains lethargic but is at least alive. All the guppies became a bit less active in the salt. I am wondering if it could be causing more problems than it solves at this point.

Note that there is one guppy from the same LFS in the QT tank with the corys because I got it a week ago and didn't want to bung it in the main tank without a quarantine period. As the corys were also in QT bc new, I thought it made the most sense. Now I'm concerned that guppy carried something in although all the fish are from the same store so who knows.

Attached: photos of two sick guppies lying on the floor yesterday (colorful one has since died) and of the dead cory this morning.

I would like to know:
1) PRIORITY: what else to try to save the the remaining habrosus corys in the QT tank?  (The parameters are the same as the 20L except the pH is more like 7.9-8.0.)

2) what else to save remaining guppies in the 20L?
3) how long to leave the salt in the 20L before beginning water changes to reduce the salinity and to remove water that had dead fish and disease in it – could it be weakening the remaining fish at this point?

I know this is a lousy way to introduce myself to a new forum… been reading for several months and appreciate everyone already. Thank you so much!

 

[Whitecloud09]

@Colu

[Andarina]

On 7/4/2024 at 2:13 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

@Colu

Hi Whitecloud09, thank you for replying but I can't see any text in your reply. Would you mind trying again?

 

[Colu]

On 7/4/2024 at 8:08 PM, Andarina said:

Hi Whitecloud09, thank you for replying but I can't see any text in your reply. Would you mind trying again?

 

Any rapid breathing hanging out near the surface lethargy flashing spitting food out sunken belly white stringy poop Reddening to the gills or body did you have ammonia present before the guppies died 

[Whitecloud09]

On 7/4/2024 at 3:08 PM, Andarina said:

Hi Whitecloud09, thank you for replying but I can't see any text in your reply. Would you mind trying again?

 

I meant @Colu, he is a disease expert. So I quoted him. He will receive a email form that so he will see your post @Andarina. Sorry for the misunderstanding 🙂

[Whitecloud09]

But I have some Qs, the amount of food, as much as they can eat in 2 mins isn’t always the best idea actually, cause that can be a lot or a little. If they are fat, then could be overfeeding. (But just a thought). 

On 7/4/2024 at 4:08 PM, Colu said:

Any rapid breathing hanging out near the surface lethargy flashing spitting food out sunken belly white stringy poop Reddening to the gills or body did you have ammonia present before the guppies died 

Yes same questions. Is there a airstone in the tank, some of the problems could be from lack of oxygen. A airstone can help with that. @Colu should have treatment ideas tho. Oh and welcome to the forum @Andarina! And community! 🙂

[Andarina]

On 7/4/2024 at 4:35 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

I meant @Colu, he is a disease expert. So I quoted him. He will receive a email form that so he will see your post @Andarina. Sorry for the misunderstanding 🙂

Gotcha! Thanks. And thanks for the welcome to the forum!

[Andarina]

On 7/4/2024 at 4:08 PM, Colu said:

Any rapid breathing hanging out near the surface lethargy flashing spitting food out sunken belly white stringy poop Reddening to the gills or body did you have ammonia present before the guppies died 

Some rapid breathing sometimes, some hanging near surface but 90% of the time they are hovering at the bottom or in the middle layers, stationary or swimming slowly. Not aware of spitting out food, I have fed only about every 2 days during the salt bath and when I did feed today there was very little interest. Not seeing sunken bellies. One had white stringy poop. No reddening. At last water test, ammonia was 0 ppm. I have not checked in several days due to the water changes with the salt bath.

@Whitecloud09 asked "But I have some Qs, the amount of food, as much as they can eat in 2 mins isn’t always the best idea actually, cause that can be a lot or a little. If they are fat, then could be overfeeding. (But just a thought)... Is there a airstone in the tank, some of the problems could be from lack of oxygen. A airstone can help with that."

The amount of food for just the 2-3 guppies has been a tiny sprinkle , like if it was ice cream jimmies, it would be about 20-30 (I think…) FWIW, I used to feed more often and they were thriving at that point… I backed it off bc a fishkeeping friend suggested it might be too much and make them sick, hah… no idea if that is coincidental or causal though. No airstone, but there sure could be. And they did have some oxygen issues for a few months as the water level kept dropping below the sponge filter spout. I should mention that I just finished 4 mo of chemo and was so proud that they all hung in there but it looks like there were perhaps cumulative slips that added up to stress which opened them up to disease perhaps… makes me super sad. It was what I could give.

This just in… I just tested the well water coming from the tap and the pH was 7.4 instead of the 8.2 it was last week. I have NO idea how this could have happened in the well. But it could be a contributing factor to the most recent deaths perhaps? Not the earlier ones though. I am adding baking soda to the water change bucket to bring it back to what they were used to in case that helps. I still expect the last two to die though. Sigh.

Thank you for any advice you can offer!

[Colu]

Could be a bacterial component to the deaths I think it would be do a course of maracyn2 in food feeding a small amount twice a day for 7 days if there not eating i would dose the tank and add an extra air stone @Andarina

[Whitecloud09]

I would be careful with the baking soda, can really spike the ph if to much added. But you should be fine there. The ph, if it is drastically changing, and fast, and a big difference like how you mentioned, can very well be a big issue. Just don’t know how that is even possible. Weird.

[Andarina]

On 7/5/2024 at 9:16 AM, Whitecloud09 said:

I would be careful with the baking soda, can really spike the ph if to much added. But you should be fine there. The ph, if it is drastically changing, and fast, and a big difference like how you mentioned, can very well be a big issue. Just don’t know how that is even possible. Weird.

Thank you, Whitecloud09. I was very careful with the baking soda and nothing bad happened to the QT tank – was able to match the pH until the well came back up to the right level. Now it is a question for the plumber tomorrow. I hope he can shed some light on that part of the issue.

[Andarina]

On 7/4/2024 at 8:51 PM, Colu said:

Could be a bacterial component to the deaths I think it would be do a course of maracyn2 in food feeding a small amount twice a day for 7 days if there not eating i would dose the tank and add an extra air stone @Andarina

Thank you, @Colu. Unfortunately, all the guppies are now dead. I was not able to get Maracyn2 in time or by mail order. The last fish to die finally had some obvious symptoms which may be helpful – pineconing and red gills as well as the white stringy poo. I did not get a photo, but does this sound like anything identifiable to you, for future reference?  I will make sure to have meds included in my startup budget next time so I don't have to watch this happen again if I can avoid it.

My question now is this: what do I need to do to make that tank safe for fish again? I still have 3 fish in my QT tank who will be fine there indefinitely, but the goal was to have the 20 gal long be the only tank. I don't know if it is safer for new fish to (A) nuke it, (B) do some combination of discarding/sterilizing/replacing to try to remove remaining disease-causing elements, or (C) let it sit for a long enough period that the diseases will go dormant again with no fish hosts around. Someone else suggested 90 days… would that do it? I did put the shrimp and snails back in after changing out the salt. So I have a nice, possibly-disease-ridden planted invert tank… and a 10 gal with three healthy fish sitting on a table I need back at some point for other things… but it could sit there for 90 days if that was what it took to be sure those 3 fish aren't just going to get sick and die as soon as I put them into the 20 gal L.

I would love some advice on what to do to clean this up and start rebuilding again. Thank you very much.

 

[Whitecloud09]

On 7/10/2024 at 1:24 PM, Andarina said:

Thank you, @Colu. Unfortunately, all the guppies are now dead. I was not able to get Maracyn2 in time or by mail order. The last fish to die finally had some obvious symptoms which may be helpful – pineconing and red gills as well as the white stringy poo. I did not get a photo, but does this sound like anything identifiable to you, for future reference?  I will make sure to have meds included in my startup budget next time so I don't have to watch this happen again if I can avoid it.

My question now is this: what do I need to do to make that tank safe for fish again? I still have 3 fish in my QT tank who will be fine there indefinitely, but the goal was to have the 20 gal long be the only tank. I don't know if it is safer for new fish to (A) nuke it, (B) do some combination of discarding/sterilizing/replacing to try to remove remaining disease-causing elements, or (C) let it sit for a long enough period that the diseases will go dormant again with no fish hosts around. Someone else suggested 90 days… would that do it? I did put the shrimp and snails back in after changing out the salt. So I have a nice, possibly-disease-ridden planted invert tank… and a 10 gal with three healthy fish sitting on a table I need back at some point for other things… but it could sit there for 90 days if that was what it took to be sure those 3 fish aren't just going to get sick and die as soon as I put them into the 20 gal L.

I would love some advice on what to do to clean this up and start rebuilding again. Thank you very much.

 

I am very sorry to hear this @Andarina. 😥 Losing fish is tuff, but now it is time to prepare for your other fishes in the future. First step is figure out the ph and water chemistry, fish will have hard times in ph changing (especially if it is drastic) water. The plumber might have some suggestions when he comes. But @Colu should have more advice about the tank and getting ready for other fish. Again, losing fish is tuff, but sadly pets don’t live forever, but next time, you will be able to give them good long lives once figuring out what went wrong, hopefully! Good luck!

[Colu]

On 7/10/2024 at 6:24 PM, Andarina said:

Thank you, @Colu. Unfortunately, all the guppies are now dead. I was not able to get Maracyn2 in time or by mail order. The last fish to die finally had some obvious symptoms which may be helpful – pineconing and red gills as well as the white stringy poo. I did not get a photo, but does this sound like anything identifiable to you, for future reference?  I will make sure to have meds included in my startup budget next time so I don't have to watch this happen again if I can avoid it.

My question now is this: what do I need to do to make that tank safe for fish again? I still have 3 fish in my QT tank who will be fine there indefinitely, but the goal was to have the 20 gal long be the only tank. I don't know if it is safer for new fish to (A) nuke it, (B) do some combination of discarding/sterilizing/replacing to try to remove remaining disease-causing elements, or (C) let it sit for a long enough period that the diseases will go dormant again with no fish hosts around. Someone else suggested 90 days… would that do it? I did put the shrimp and snails back in after changing out the salt. So I have a nice, possibly-disease-ridden planted invert tank… and a 10 gal with three healthy fish sitting on a table I need back at some point for other things… but it could sit there for 90 days if that was what it took to be sure those 3 fish aren't just going to get sick and die as soon as I put them into the 20 gal L.

I would love some advice on what to do to clean this up and start rebuilding again. Thank you very much.

 

With pineconing that can be caused by a number of things such as a parasitic infection or a bacterial infections with redness to the Gill that can be caused by a bacterial infection  ammonia burn or a parasite such as Gill flukes What I would do is leave it a minimum of 40 days without  fish as most pathogens and parasite can't survive longer than 30 days without a host I would also add some Dr Tim's ammonia or you can ghost feed the tank to keep it cycled and monitor your other fish very closely in quarantine during this period