Angelfish Pairing

[TP.]

Hello everyone. I appreciate any and all advice. I'm a new fish keeper and need some advice. I have a 75 gl. tank and ordered Koi angels. I had 4 of 6 after shipping. Initially I thought they would starve hiding, but one would come out. He turned out to be the alpha male and fought with the others when feeding later and leading the others to fight.
I worried but never any fin damage. Soon he paired with another angel and had one failed spawn before I realized. I later found where they had abandoned what looks like a small first spawn. The next one was going well when I removed the pair and the eggs into a 45 gl. The morning of the third day the eggs were gone and i think the male ate them. The female seemed to shun the male and they both moped around in the tank.
I put the male then the female back into the 75 gl several days later and the fighting started back instantly. I removed the male as I thought he was going to hurt one. The female stayed in the corner looking at the male and the next day I put her back in the 45 with him. The female continued to shun the male. She also did not appear to eat. At this point I hoped the pair would still mate and I ordered 3 more angels to put with the two remaining 2 female angels in the 75, hoping to get another pair.

Today I was devastated, I went to the tank this morning and the female angel was dead. No sign of any damage. I think she died of a broken heart. I am at a loss on how to move ahead. I have one dominant male in the 45 and 2 passive females in the 75 with three new angles coming. My first thought is to add the new ones into the 75. When I get a pair they can go into the 45 or maybe a 20 while they breed. I guess I need to try and find a female for the dominant male but I'm not sure how to choose which one.  My plan is to get a large batch of angles.


I have plenty of tanks and stuff. All the water quality is good, my water is high GH & KH. I have 3 Vietnamese algae eaters and two rabbit snails in the 75 along with some cherry shrimp and the 45 is empty except for some cherry shrimp.

I've spent hundreds of hours online researching and it seems like bottom line, anything is always possible. What is the best system to get these fish together with the least amount of stress on the fish, and me.

Thanks!!

Terry

Edited June 24 by TP.
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[mynameisnobody]

All bets are off when cichlids breed. Angelfish are incredible fish, but very difficult to keep in numbers other than a pair. Why did you only have 4 of 6 after shipping? Be sure to buy from a quality breeder and this first mis step would be prevented. I can also tell you the female died because of breeding rituals and territories, I can guarantee it’s not from a broken heart. 

[TP.]

On 6/24/2024 at 7:33 PM, mynameisnobody said:

All bets are off when cichlids breed. Angelfish are incredible fish, but very difficult to keep in numbers other than a pair. Why did you only have 4 of 6 after shipping? Be sure to buy from a quality breeder and this first mis step would be prevented. I can also tell you the female died because of breeding rituals and territories, I can guarantee it’s not from a broken heart. 

Thanks for the reply. I had ordered 6 as most suggested that number to try and get some to pair up. One arrived doa, another was dead the next morning. leaving me with 4. I was waiting to add other fish as this was going to be a community tank. The more complicated things got, the more I wanted to have a batch of Angelfish. I am not accustomed to the emotional stresses these fish bring. When I saw one dead I kind of blamed myself for not removing it sooner. I have not seen a lot mentioned on the fighting and bullying that can happen and how not to let it bug you. I guess it is a common fact that gets downplayed.

Is there a system to limit putting fish together anymore than is necessary. I can try to sort things out to the degree that I recognized what is happening. I guess you pick it up faster dealing with it. I'll keep reading up in "introducing fish" and look for some way to limit any fighting before I can take action.

[mynameisnobody]

Here’s the thing, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? If you want a community tank then 1 angelfish will do fine as long as its tank mates can’t fit in its mouth. Once you start tossing 6 angels in (which is a number given for the probability of getting a pair), you now are entering a breeding tank and then all bets are off. The reason I ask where did you buy is because the DOA should be replaced if bought from a reputable breeder. 

[Tlindsey]

I agree with @mynameisnobody . When two of the Angelfish pair off and spawn don't remove the adults because the bond between the pair may be broken. That's possibly why the male harassed the female.

[Tony s]

And pair behavior is different for each pair. I had 2 pairs and 2 extra males in one tank with little aggression. My marble female ditched her mate and repaired with another male. That male was aggressive as heck. Even pushed rainbow fish to the bottom. They are now in their own breeding tank. The spare males have been joined by 2 more males. Possibly more as we get more. And back to minimal aggression. Hopefully I can get the big marbles to breed. Not having luck in the breeding tank yet. Anyway, cichlid behavior depends on the personality of the angelfish . Possibly more than any other type of fish. If you can sex them and not get a pair, the aggression doesn’t build up much. Have 4 more juveniles coming in. Hoping to get an all male tank at this point. 

[AllFishNoBrakes]

If your goal is to breed Angels, let them naturally pair. Instead of removing the fish, just remove the eggs and artificially hatch the eggs yourself. 
 

I have a breeding pair of Panda Angels. I let them breed as they wish, and I pull the eggs and hatch them myself when I need or want to. 
 

I have a different pair in a community tank. 6 Angels in a 55 along with a trio of Dwarf Rainbows, Cardinal Tetras, and Albino Cory’s. When this pair breeds it turns into the thunderdome as the pair guards their eggs, so I just remove and dispose of the eggs. The following day, the tank is peaceful again. 

[daggaz]

If a fish cries underwater and nobody can see its tears, was it ever unhappy?    

[Goosedub]

Angels are touchy. You either want a single angel, a pair for breeding, or a whole bunch of them. They are very aggressive with each other and do a lot of posturing. I have had breeding pairs kill each other like was mentioned above. I have also had small groups do fine with each other. They really run the gambit on personality and it is a toss up when you get them. I’m amazed you can tell you have a male and two females left. I have a breeding pair and can’t even tell who is who until they are about to spawn.

[TP.]

Thanks for the replies! More later but off to the Dr now.

 

[TP.]

On 6/24/2024 at 8:20 PM, mynameisnobody said:

Here’s the thing, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? If you want a community tank then 1 angelfish will do fine as long as its tank mates can’t fit in its mouth. Once you start tossing 6 angels in (which is a number given for the probability of getting a pair), you now are entering a breeding tank and then all bets are off. The reason I ask where did you buy is because the DOA should be replaced if bought from a reputable breeder. 

I initially wanted to make a community tank with angles as the main character. When I got them, I wanted to learn more about them, When I did see a spawn I had the 40 gl set aside for them. I put them back thinking the familiar tank and mates would be good and the next spawn I was just going to remove the eggs. Then the male became aggressive, I thought it better to put them back in the 40 and the female may come around.

After getting them I want to go through a spawn and see a tank full of baby Angels. My original plan was a Peacock tank and other tanks with A cacatuoides & Agazzi , German Blue Rams and a community tank. 

 

On 6/24/2024 at 10:28 PM, Tlindsey said:

I agree with @mynameisnobody . When two of the Angelfish pair off and spawn don't remove the adults because the bond between the pair may be broken. That's possibly why the male harassed the female.

I thought they would like the tank to themselves and less grief to the two remaining angles. I should have left them alone and let them try to raise them but worried about the aggression. Or just taken the eggs. I see now this will be normal and the changes I made were worse than the tank happenings.

On 6/24/2024 at 11:51 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

If your goal is to breed Angels, let them naturally pair. Instead of removing the fish, just remove the eggs and artificially hatch the eggs yourself. 
 

I have a breeding pair of Panda Angels. I let them breed as they wish, and I pull the eggs and hatch them myself when I need or want to. 
 

I have a different pair in a community tank. 6 Angels in a 55 along with a trio of Dwarf Rainbows, Cardinal Tetras, and Albino Cory’s. When this pair breeds it turns into the thunderdome as the pair guards their eggs, so I just remove and dispose of the eggs. The following day, the tank is peaceful again. 

Would you suggest putting the original male back in with the 2 females in the 75? Then put  the three new coming in, in the 40 gl, monitor mating and go from there.

 

 

On 6/25/2024 at 7:26 AM, Goosedub said:

Angels are touchy. You either want a single angel, a pair for breeding, or a whole bunch of them. They are very aggressive with each other and do a lot of posturing. I have had breeding pairs kill each other like was mentioned above. I have also had small groups do fine with each other. They really run the gambit on personality and it is a toss up when you get them. I’m amazed you can tell you have a male and two females left. I have a breeding pair and can’t even tell who is who until they are about to spawn.

Thanks I need to read this often. I could be wrong I see these fish going after each other and just imagine what they are saying.. One of the 2 "females" could be male. 

 

Thanks again for the help. I am very grateful for the comments and help.

Terry

 

 

[AllFishNoBrakes]

On 6/25/2024 at 9:27 AM, TP. said:

Would you suggest putting the original male back in with the 2 females in the 75?

Totally up to you. I was able to move my Panda pair to a tank without breaking the pair. It’s totally your call and what you wanna do. 
 

Remember that at the end of the day Angelfish are cichlids, and their name is deceiving. They’re some of my favorite fish I own, and over the 4 years I’ve had them I’ve just gotten some luck and have come to understand some of their behavior. 

[TP.]

On 6/25/2024 at 12:11 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

Totally up to you. I was able to move my Panda pair to a tank without breaking the pair. It’s totally your call and what you wanna do. 
 

Remember that at the end of the day Angelfish are cichlids, and their name is deceiving. They’re some of my favorite fish I own, and over the 4 years I’ve had them I’ve just gotten some luck and have come to understand some of their behavior. 

Thanks! The angels could see each other between tanks. At first blush it seemed the male wanted back in the 75 so I put him in. Only to see the M and what I thought was one of the Females going at it. So it may be a male. Either way I hope they all survive the next few days. If the two are still going at I may put the weaker looking fish in the 40 and put the 3 new angels in there. And hope the male will pair with the favored one. 

I'll post an update.

[Tlindsey]

On 6/25/2024 at 12:11 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

Angelfish are cichlids, and their name is deceiving.

This is very important info. 

On 6/25/2024 at 12:33 PM, Tlindsey said:

This is very important info. 

I personally don't label any cichlids peaceful 😅