I love CPD. I'm tired of CPD. Help needed to diagnose the infection.

[riioKen]

Hi guys I have a problem with CPD since May 2023. 

I start from the very beginning.

My initial tank was a 20g, with an Oase Biomaster thermo 600 with 4 liters of seachem matrix and tropica aquasoil as substrate. Fully cycled for 2 months before adding any livestock.

 

Water params:

Ammonia/Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 5ppm

Gh: 10

KH: 4

Ca: 80ppm

Mg: 9ppm

TDS between 280 - 330ppm

Temperature 25-27 c° (it was summer) and 23-25° from Sep to Nov

50% wc weekly

 

The initial livestock was:

CPD: 12

Ember tetra 11

Pygmy cory: 5

Otocinclus: 6

Amano shrimp: 2

 

When I first set up this tank, everything went smoothly for about 3 months. But in summer the CPDs started to die (and repeat, only CPD), it isn't an immediately death but more like a "process" that end in that way, during this process the fish act normally, eating, chasing each other and other behaviors cpd's typical.

 

How it starts? Discoloration, the CPD firstly start to "wash out" its color, it become pale, then it start to curve its shape (like bending, not always sometimes the bend happen to the end of the "infection") and in the last few days, it's as if the scales are lifting, when this symptom appears, it just a matter of time and swim bladder issue appear, usually 2-3 days and it dies. The process between first symptom and the death takes about 30-40 days.

 

----- Above is the past, this is today -----

 

3 month ago i set up a new tank, 90g, 2 oase biomaster thermo 600 and around 7L of seachem matrix, tropica aquasoil.

I moved all the livestock in this new tank.

livestock in the new tank is:

CPD: 6 - 1 (every fish death is always the same), the -1 beacause i have a cpd in the old 20g (im using it as QT tank) with the same symptoms.

Ember tetra: 10 (during the transfer, phisycal was perfect, just like any other ember tetra)

Pygmy cory: 5

Otocinclus: 6 (proudly 100% survival rate, from the shop to my home, and going strong since may)

Amano shrimp: 2 + 8 (bought for the new tank)

 

In this new tank, i've added only shrimp as extra livestock, all the others are from the original stock from May.

I've started using RO water too.

Water params (RO recontituted with MgSO4 and CaSO4)

Ammonia/Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 5 to 15ppm (after wc i do double dose of ferts, i use EI index, the tank is a dutch style)

Ca: 23ppm

Mg: 9ppm

GH: 5-6

KH: 0

Tds: 170 - 240ppm

Temperature: 22°

 

50-60% WC change weekly (now im doing 2x weekly due some to algae)

 

What i did trying to deal with this "infection"? i've used Kanaplex. Everytime i had an infected fish, i mixed kanaplex in food and feed the fish for 1 week, then stop. The infected fish would not change its shape, but usually start to color up a bit. Then what happen is, someday after the kanaplex treatment, starts swim bladder issue, i remove it from the main tank and put it in the 20g with the 20 litres of water, an heater, an airstone and a scoop of kanaplex (as suggested by seachem). I can't use Kanaplex on the main tank due to Shrimp and plants (its stated that kanaplex kills both).

 

I love cpd, i would like to have a tank with a school of 50cpd but i can't risks other casualties with newly added fish, i need to fix this problem first. Any suggestion?

 

Photo as reference, it's not the one in my tank, but the symptoms are the same, I heard It could be columnaris but I heard it is very deadly and in a short time, so idk if we should exclude it, never experienced white mouth. Only on the sides. 

Edited February 28 by riioKen

[Colu]

Given the length of time between deaths it's less likely to be a bacterial infections I couldn't rule it out with bloating and raised scales can be caused by a parasitc infection I would have expected it to have affected your other fish given the length of time what it's been going on have you notice any aggression between your CPD it's not uncommon for them to kill each other if you do need to use an antibiotic treatment I would use maracyn2 active ingredient minocycline won't harm shrimp kanaplex isn't effective in food as very little of the medication makes it into the blood stream though the intestinal tract 

[riioKen]

On 2/28/2024 at 3:56 PM, Colu said:

Given the length of time between deaths it's less likely to be a bacterial infections I couldn't rule it out with bloating and raised scales can be caused by a parasitc infection I would have expected it to have affected your other fish given the length of time what it's been going on have you notice any aggression between your CPD it's not uncommon for them to kill each other if you do need to use an antibiotic treatment I would use maracyn2 active ingredient minocycline won't harm shrimp kanaplex isn't effective in food as very little of the medication makes it into the blood stream though the intestinal tract 

Just for reference, last death was mid January, but I've noticed a new "infected" 2 days ago, 0 symptoms meanwhile. 

 

I live in Europe, I literally can't find ANY antibiotics, the "kanaplex" i got it on ebay (around 45$ for the little ones)

I searched for minocycline, ofc nothing for aquarium use, but instead I found it for human use, ofc I need a prescription from a med. Could work it?

https://www.my-personaltrainer.it/Foglietti-illustrativi/Minocin.html?google-amp=1

[Colu]

You can use minocycline tablet the recommended dose  is 0.6gram of minocycline is 10mg so you want dose 10mg for 10 gallons 

[bennyblee]

Hi riioKen,

I am very new to the hobby so take whatever I say with a grain of salt, but when I first set up my first 20g tank about 2 years ago, the fish I was most excited to stock was CPD, they are such beautiful little fish. After a year of effort, I decided to stop trying to keep these fish--every single one I would get would develop a curved spine and die, looking very wasted. Only one of them ever had any visible lesions, but it looked exactly like the lesions on your fish, a pinkish/flesh-colored patch on the side. None of mine ever developed pine coning. They were not dying at the same time, suggestive of an infectious outbreak, but weeks and sometimes months apart from each other, but all ultimately developing the curved spine and wasted look before expiring or needing to be euthanized.

I only have one LFS where I live that supplies these fish, I am convinced that the fish I have access to simply have very poor genetics, and are dying directly as a result of genetic issues, or that those underlying issues make them exquisitely sensitive to infections. The shop confirmed that the fish they supply are captive bred. I thought about trying to order from online sources to try fish from different suppliers/sources see if that was indeed the difference, but by that point I had just decided to move on to other fish and revisit this another time in the future and never came back around to it.

Are you always getting your fish from the same source? If so, and you want to keep trying, my humble suggestion would be to find a different source to see if that makes any difference... If you've already gone that route, then sorry I got nothin'.

[riioKen]

On 2/29/2024 at 8:07 PM, bennyblee said:

Are you always getting your fish from the same source? If so, and you want to keep trying, my humble suggestion would be to find a different source to see if that makes any difference... If you've already gone that route, then sorry I got nothin'.

Honestly, your experience is very helpful, I bought 12 of them and I never "restock" them, in fact, since I have them I never bought any other fish, cause I'm afraid that the new addition will be infected (in the tank, as I said, there are ember tetra, pygmy, otos, none of them has these symptoms, well in fact none of them died in these months except ember tetra, but only 2 or 3 in the first month, I have all my stock since May). 

 

It makes sense, after bending, swim bladder issue appears as last "symptom", this happened to you too?

[bennyblee]

On 2/29/2024 at 3:37 PM, riioKen said:

It makes sense, after bending, swim bladder issue appears as last "symptom", this happened to you too?

My fish didn't seem to have swim bladder issues at the end, mainly they just wasted away. Each time though, the first thing I would notice was the spine starting to curve.