Guppy Tank annihilated with unknown disease- now what do I do?

[CateLinden]

Hello, I have spent hours reading articles on Aquarium Co Op. Last year, my son started a freshwater fish tank. We had some trial and error at the beginning, but he now has a full and seemingly very healthy tank of danios, rosy reds and tetras.

 

I found the fish so interesting, as I learned along with him how to start and keep his tank community, and decided to start my own last month. I cycled the tank, tested the water, and last weekend it seemed ready to start filling with fish. I decided to start with guppies instead of danios, because it was my hope to have a tank of mostly guppies and tetras, and it seemed like guppies would be okay in a new tank so long as it had cycled. And I think maybe they would have been, but what follows is the tragic chronology that has led to the demise of my three guppies:

 I bought three guppies from Petco, and as soon as I put them in the new tank, one of them seemed to be having difficulties swimming. I hadn't noticed this when it was in the bag, but one fin didn't seem to be working right. I initially thought it may have been injured when the Petco guy scooped him out. He wasn't the gentlest with the tiny little guppies, unfortunately.

    By the very next morning, guppy number one was dead. I buried him. Guppy number two was hiding almost continuously, which worried me, and guppy number three seemed fine. 

  Within about two more days, guppy number two had come out from hiding, and was eating and acting more normal, but I noticed tiny white spots on him, so I thought maybe it was Ich. I ordered Ich-X, and continued to observe the fish while waiting for the medicine to arrive. I also noticed, however, that both guppies seemed to have tail rot as well. I bought some Melafix and started dosing them with Melafix.

  As the week progressed, the Melafix didn't appear to be doing much. Guppy number 3 started to sicken. No spots, but bad tail rot, and seemed like some bloating. Both guppies oddly spent about three days just clustering at the heater, which I looked online and couldn't find any good explanations for, because the water in the tank was a fine temperature, and they weren't hiding from current, the filter was actually close to the thermometer, so if anything the current was stronger there.

   I opted not to use Ich X because by the time it arrived, on Friday, I was more concerned about the tail rot and bloating, and the Ich X said I can't use it in conjunction with any other medication, so I DID NOT treat them for Ich, but instead had ordered Kanaplex (and Maracyn and Maracyn 2 as well, but those have, to date, not yet arrived) and opted to keep using Melafix until the Kanaplex arrived. By this point I have spent about 4 times as much on medicine for these fish as I spent buying the fish!

   Guppy number 3 stopped eating Friday night but Guppy number 2 actually seemed to be doing better, but continued to rapidly lose pieces off his tail. 

   By the time the Kanaplex arrived at last, this afternoon, guppy number 3 was pretty much entirely gone. He was lying on his side, on the top of the tank, breathing but not able to move. He seemed extremely bloated. I went ahead and did about a 25% tank change (the first water change I've done since putting the fish in last weekend), and then added the Kanaplex. 

     I think that must have been a mistake because after a couple hours, guppy number 3 was dead (not a shock though, even with the right medicine I think it was too late for him), and now guppy number 2, who had seemed to be improving has now also stopped swimming or eating, and is lying on the bottom of the tank mostly listless. He hasn't died yet, but looks about how guppy number 3 did first thing this morning, and he died 6 hours later.

    This has been a rather traumatic experience, and my heart is a little broken for these fish, especially after having watched them slowly deteriorate over the past week. But it hasn't deterred my interest in starting my own aquarium and trying to learn more, in the hopes I can avoid this disaster again. I know there may be no way at this point to know exactly what the fish were sick with, but I wondered if I could have some guidance in what I could or should do differently in the future if this happens again, AND I wondered how I make my tank safe to try again with new fish? 

    As a note, I did continue to test my water throughout this past week, and the ph was a little on the high end, but not in the danger zone, according to the test strips (I think it was around 7.6-7.8...is that okay for guppies?), and there didn't appear to be any nitrate or nitrite spikes. I have a decent amount of plants and moss in the aquarium. 

    Any guidance or advice would be very appreciated. Thank you in advance!

[Colu]

What exactly were your water parameters ammonia nitrite nitrate KH GH temperature can you post a picture of the fish it will help with a diagnosis @CateLinden

[Tony s]

 

I think this video is highly relevant here. I’m guessing for a lot of these it’s really nobody’s fault 

[Tony s]

I myself can’t keep standard neons alive more than a couple of weeks. Losing upwards of 70%

[CateLinden]

Wow, I didn't know that about guppies being so difficult to keep alive. I feel a little better that I'm not a total failure but still discouraged. 

So I keep my tank's temp at a steady 77-78 F at all times. The nitrates and nitrites are almost 0. I'm not familiar with what GH and KH is, but I know my water is on the harder side, and contains some carbonate.

Now that I have lost my sweet little guppies, how do I start getting the tank fit to re-populate? It takes a long time to ensure all disease is gone, is that correct?

   

Tony- I'm sorry to hear you are having a lot of frustrations too. Are you talking about neon tetras? My son just adopted two last weekend (the same time I got the guppies). His seem very healthy so far, which I guess is lucky. We also didn't know they are difficult to keep alive either! But my son's tank is well established and so maybe was a more comfortable environment for the tetras? I don't know.

[Tony s]

I’m not if you had an actual disease, or if they were just showing signs of stress. My neons don’t usually show symptoms, they just disappear. I keep snails in all my tanks, so probably snail food. 
 

gh (general hardness) is the amount of calcium/magnesium you have in your water.

kh (carbonic hardness) is related to alkalinity of your water. Now, not talking about about the acid/base ratio. True alkalinity is a measure of how resistant your water is to ph swings. Which is very helpful in stabilizing your tanks ph. Extremely important, you need some or it can vary wildly, which is bad for your fish. 
 

that being said, you’re better off just understanding what they are. The harder your water, the higher your gh and kh are going to be. Keeping fish, it’s usually not going to be an issue. Where it becomes an issue is in breeding some fish. Some people will play around with these values and do what’s called chasing their ph. It’s really not advisable for regular people to mess with. Just use what you have coming from your tap and you’ll be fine. Remembering to use a good dechlorinator after every water change. Seachem prime is now carried at petsmart/petco and seems to be about the best. 

 

[Colu]

On 2/5/2024 at 2:57 AM, CateLinden said:

Wow, I didn't know that about guppies being so difficult to keep alive. I feel a little better that I'm not a total failure but still discouraged. 

So I keep my tank's temp at a steady 77-78 F at all times. The nitrates and nitrites are almost 0. I'm not familiar with what GH and KH is, but I know my water is on the harder side, and contains some carbonate.

Now that I have lost my sweet little guppies, how do I start getting the tank fit to re-populate? It takes a long time to ensure all disease is gone, is that correct?

   

Tony- I'm sorry to hear you are having a lot of frustrations too. Are you talking about neon tetras? My son just adopted two last weekend (the same time I got the guppies). His seem very healthy so far, which I guess is lucky. We also didn't know they are difficult to keep alive either! But my son's tank is well established and so maybe was a more comfortable environment for the tetras? I don't know.

Liverbears like guppies do best with pH 7.0-8.0 KH between 70-140ppm and GH of 100-140ppm if your  KH and GH are to low this can cause alot of health problems in Guppies you say nitrite are almost zero even a small amount of nitrite is harmful to you fish I would get an API liquid KH and GH test what's your ammonia and pH 

Edited February 5 by Colu

[Tony s]

I included Jason’s video here, he can explain the cycle better than I can. He’s a microbiology professor from around Chicago. I love his channel. He does such a wonderful job explaining things to regular people. He also does fish profiles of the fish he keeps. He also has hard water like we do. So, what he’ll show you will work for hard water. Most live bearers like water on the hard side anyway. 

On 2/4/2024 at 11:08 PM, Colu said:

Liverbears like guppies do best with pH 7.0-8.0 KH between 70-140ppm and GH of 100-140ppm if your  KH and GH are to low this can cause alot of health problems in Guppies you say nitrite are almost zero even a small amount of nitrite is harmful to you fish I would get an API liquid KH and GH test what's your ammonia and pH 

Hi Colu, she had a question about how long does a disease take to clear a tank. I haven’t got an answer for her. Do you? I’m not honestly sure she had a disease and the fish didn’t just stress out. A disease shouldn’t be that lethal that quickly.

Edited February 5 by Tony s

[CateLinden]

So I just tested my water again. It's still showing no nitrites or nitrates, though I just had two fish die in the tank today...should that number have changed as a result? (I didn't leave the deceased fish in the tank for any amount of time, however). My water is definately on the hard end of "ok" (around 150 mg/L). Carbonate about 120 and pH between 7.2 and 7.6. No trace of chlorine either. Before I added my water to the tank today (the 25% water change), I had left the water sit for over 24 hours, and added Tetra Aquasafe to it (which I always do when adding ANY water to either aquarium).

    What would have stressed the guppies out so badly, if the temperature and water parameters were good? Plus they had really rapid fin rot. For a couple days one looked to have white spots on it, too, indicative of Ich, but then I didn't notice the spots the last couple days and I have heard of something called "stress Ich", but also read that's a myth, that white spots always mean actual Ich. So I don't know. It seems really confusing...towards the end especially the yellow guppy also became pretty pale and very bloated. 

    And yes, please do let me know any information on how I can ensure if there was any infection in the tank, that it's completely cleared before trying to adopt any new fish.

[Tony s]

 

[Scapexghost]

On 2/4/2024 at 4:14 PM, CateLinden said:

I bought three guppies from Petco

I think this is where the issue lies. Some petcos and petsmarts have really great and knowledgeble employees, but few if any have good fish. They are all on the same system, they don't quarantine, and they don't even carry the good meds so they couldn't treat them if they wanted to. 

If this is your only source of fish then i recommend treating from day one. I would treat with salt as this is a very effective treatment and guppies arguably prefer salt. Start at .5% and climb up to 1.5% salinity if you see any signs of illness. (Consider investing in a refractometer) Prazipro will hit what the salt doesn't so consider it. With guppies, you are really buying the genes, as it is the second and third and beyond generations that will really be good for you. Hope this helps. I love fish but getting new fish is the best and worst part of this hobby.

[Tony s]

Apparently I gave you the wrong video. That was Jason being the professor. Might have been information overload. This might be better.

I had the same issue when starting out. Low to zero ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. My fish store called my water still sterile. Basically a completely uncycled tank. I was having a lot of issues with bloat, dropsy, ich, and just fish suddenly dying. A lot of that was just very stressed out fish. They became very susceptible to every disease and die really quickly. 
 

yes, stress ich is a thing. But it’s just regular ich that comes on very quickly from stress. Actually most ich is caused by stress.

if you’re seeing ammonia, and nothing else. No nitrates or nitrites, it’s still an uncycledtank. Which could very easily cause all kinds of diseases to manifest. 
 

your kh, gh, ph are quite good for live bearers. Your water isn’t really that hard. Mine is closer to 300gh, 240kh. So no issues there. Although kh and gh almost never cause issues like that 

I’m not sure if you have anybody left at this point. If not, I’m sorry for your losses. I’ve been there before. It’s just a completely helpless feeling when you’re new. 
 

if you do, I can walk you through a fish-in cycle. The problem being if they’re not eating, they’re not producing waste either. 
 

 

 

[Tony s]

If the tank is empty, you have 2 basic options. Trying again after a bit, maybe couple of days to a week or 2. Or you could completely break it down and let it dry out. This would kill any disease issues. Personally, I would choose the first option. Most common disease causing organisms are always In with the fish anyway. As long as they’re not under stress, they don’t get sick. 
at this point you could do a fish less cycle. Which would be easier on you. And we could go through that as well 

[CateLinden]

Tony, thank you so much for all your insight on this! I thought my tank was cycled because the nitrates and nitrites were very low to non existent...

 

I think you had meant to hyperlink a video in your post before your most recent one, but I couldn't find a link. Though I have read a lot about cycling the tank, and did cycle my son's tank successfully...though I did sort of a hybrid cycle and fish in cycle, because we waited about a week after starting everything up, then added in two danios. It seems danios are pretty invincible, as they were completely fine throughout the cycle, and also later on when I had some spikes in my nitrates as well. 

 

I could start with danios as well, I just wanted some different fish in my tank. It's only 10 gallons and I know most fish like to be in at least small schools so I have to limit how many breeds I put in. So if I'm not going to essentially have a tank of a lot of danios, I definitely would appreciate some guidance on how to help other fish thrive. Thank you again for advising on this!

[Tony s]

I can tell you what fish I had the most luck with. We also started on 10g tanks, and honestly not that long ago.

• Bettas- You know. the ones they keep in the cups. you can only do one. they tend to fight each other till one dies which is why they're in the cups and can't see each other. they're mostly peaceful with non bettas. I keep six usually, in community tanks with other peaceful fish. They can breathe air so that helps them while cycling a tank. they don't always have to breathe through the bad water. they have a ton of personality too. and are extremely colorful.
• gourami's- these are related to the bettas. also can breathe air. so, again that eases the cycle for them. The best one for a ten is called the honey gourami. it's a bit harder to find. they may not be at the big box pet stores. One for a ten is usually still the recommendation. but really cute. mostly slow moving like the betta. They have two front "arms" they use to feel their way around their tank. The next gourami is a dwarf gourami. This one may be better in a bigger tank, but since they're also slow moving, a 10 is highly doable. it just limits potential tank mates to a few. only 1 in a ten. these are very colorful as well. not as colorful as the betta, but still pretty good. they range from a powder blue color to a kind of red body with pale blue or silver stripes. Big box pet stores do carry these. 
• Harlequin rasboras- In my opinion, these little fish are highly under-rated because they're beginner friendly. these you can do more than 1 of. they're loosely schooling fish and need 5-6 to feel safe. very pretty, they have a silver/copper body with a dark black triangular patch in the middle. When they get older, they're coloration can change into a very metallic copper color. really very pretty. 
• danios- you already know about those.

there are other hardy fish that are easy to start with, but they need a bigger tank. Things like black skirt tetras (which are also the glo tetras, like your danios) and the small corydoras they carry.  Theoretically, you could add a few of these later, as you get the hang of things. 

The nice thing about the harlequins, once your tank is well cycled, you could add more harlequins. or, you could even add one betta or one gourami. I have a tank that's been running for years. It's always had 9 harlequins and 1 betta. it's very peaceful. very colorful. Its slightly overstocked, but gets more water changes, so it's fine. You just have to make sure the betta gets his food as that's about the only time the rasboras have anything resembling speed. But that's okay. He and I have an understanding. He comes to his corner, and he gets fed.

with the honey gourami you could even try the guppies again

 

 

[CateLinden]

Okay, I really like the look of the honey gourami (I googled him). My initial goal with my tank was guppies and diamond tetras, and finish off with a single betta. The Petco guy told me if you add the betta last, it's less likely to be aggressive because it won't feel territorial. Does that sound right? 

 

    I had thought guppies were okay as starter fish, but apparently not. Just to make sure I understand you correctly, you're suggesting I could possibly start my tank with a single gourami (they don't need to be in a school to be comfortable, right?), then potentially add guppies?

     I don't know that I have any options for fish besides Petsmart and Petco...I have looked and don't have any smaller or more speciality aquarium pet shops in the area. Is there a way to connect with private breeders? How much pricier is it to get your fish from breeders versus big pet shops? I completely can see the difficulties with getting fish from large stores, but between cost limitations and possibly not having any other good options in my area, that might be my only option. In which case, I've seen a lot of references to this prophylactic medicine regimen for new fish...but not sure how that works, either. I do have a lot of fish medicine now, possibly a lifetime supply of some, after my futile efforts to save my guppies.

[Tony s]

Our first tank was a betta tank, then we added the harlequins to that. first fish ever. My daughter had won a fish at a county fair in one of the ball toss games. It didn't make it through the night. next morning I had a very upset 6-year-old, so we went and got a couple of cheap tanks. I had never heard of the cycle. didn't know anything. made tons of mistakes. But I tell everyone, we mess it up then fix it. it's how we learn. and that was only a couple of years ago. You are lightyears better than I ever was when starting. But we learn.

For the bettas, we usually add them last. simply because they don't live a very long life from the box stores. supposed to live up to 5 years, but usually anywhere from 4 months to 2 years. they simply have a rougher life until someone comes to rescue them. aggression in bettas is more of the individual's personality. some are just more aggressive than others. you'll have to watch that for a while and see how they respond. but I wouldn't hesitate about putting them first, I find them nonaggressive with non bettas.

Honey gourami's are not really schooling fish, but they are a bit social and like to be in small groups. but they're okay as single fish as well.  and then add guppies when your tank is well cycled. 

I have never bought from a breeder before. we live in a rural area and there are none. It's an hour drive to one of my local stores and a 2-hour drive to the other in Indianapolis. I have a different definition of local store. 🙂  And I wait for my daughter's gymnastics to go there

I have purchased online only once, from a non-coop affiliate. I bought rams which are kind of risky in my water, but oh so pretty. They didn't make it. It was a risk, I thought i had a good setup for them. But I learn.

Aquarium coop has affiliation with Dan's fish (I am so tempted there) and aqua huna which are excellent online stores.

[Tony s]

 

 

 

 

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