My tank's cycle crashed. Am I doing the right things to recover it?

[JimOp]

I disagree about snails not adding to the bioload especially When you are already pushing the limit in a 10 gallon tank.

 

As far as smushing them. I have a 40 gallon tank breeder and fish that will gobble them up. I wasn't suggesting that you do that.

 

Here is an artical about snails that you may want to read And you can make an informed decision. I am sure there are other articals out there as well.

https://escargot-world.com/how-many-snails-in-a-10-gallon-tank/#:~:text=A 10-gallon tank has,for some species of snails.

Edited July 5, 2023 by JimOp

[JimOp]

And another.

 

https://www.thedonutwhole.com/can-you-have-too-many-snails-in-a-fish-tank/

Edited July 5, 2023 by JimOp

[cr0wley]

Interesting. Would using a small dose of copper supplement kill off enough to pick out?

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/3/2023 at 11:49 AM, cr0wley said:

and using API Aqua Essentials twice a day

Most dechlorinators will have a "works for 24 hours" statement as well as a clarification of recommending only to dose at most once per 24 hours.  The product removes oxygenation from the water and using too much, too often can cause stress.

Ultimately, daily 50% (or higher) water changes are your friend at the time of poor water parameters.  That being said there are other things to investigate and look into.
 

On 7/3/2023 at 4:25 PM, cr0wley said:

Source water is ph 7.6, amm 0, nitrite 0, nitrates 0-5. I also remembered that I do have the fluval biostratum in the 10g, which buffers the PH slightly, but shouldn't be affecting the ph as much as whatever is going on is. I did a teaspoon of baking soda and brought the ph from 6 to 7.2, and added bacteria.

Here's a peek at my log.

Do you have parameters for KH?  Not sure what that 4th one over is on this chart.  With regards to the test you're using are we talking strips?

 

On 7/3/2023 at 6:18 PM, cr0wley said:

On 7/3/2023 at 6:00 PM, JimOp said:

Decaying plants can lower PH so yes it is possible. but if it hasn't improved since tossing it, i would keep looking. Changing out the filter media may help as there may be trapped and decaying plant matter on the filter media thats preventing the recovery until it is fully decayed, changing it is faster.

I'll check into it tomorrow when its light out. Should I continue adding bacteria until the issue resolves?

Oxygenation is your friend!  More on this in a moment, I'm trying to catch up on all of the posts...

Alright.... so there's a lot going on.  Photos help immensely, so if possible please upload some shots of what you're dealing with.  A photo of the filtration and how it works may be beneficial as well. 

Let's say that your filtration is adequate, but the pump on the filter or the design of the filter for whatever reason isn't giving you enough oxygenation.  This could lead to PH drops.  This also could lead to stability issues and something like "old tank syndrome" symptoms showing up.  The goal here is to minimize stress and to increase stability....

If this were my tank I would approach the issue in a few main avenues. 
`1.  Consider a 20H or 20L as opposed to a 10G if stocking is a concern.
2.  Review / improve filtration, add an auxiliary filter, or boost up the biological side of the filter in some capacity.  Clean and verify all equipment is working properly, test everything and verify with a secondary test if possible.
3.  Check for sources of stress (disease, aggression) and contamination to the water quality.  This could just be time to do a deep clean, a few deep siphons, check for bodies, or it could just be time to get the water changes back on rhythm.

If I ever have a tank that shows ammonia or nitrite, then:
-Instant large water change, usually 50-80%.
-dose in dechlorinator as part of this process
-check that tank for issues / deaths
-add in aquarium salt
-Daily water changes (50%) until the issue is resolved
-Deep clean all filtration and clean all equipment. Check all impellers.
-Add in an airstone

[JimOp]

On 7/5/2023 at 12:43 AM, cr0wley said:

Interesting. Would using a small dose of copper supplement kill off enough to pick out?

Personally I would never use copper in an all glass tank. The issue with copper is that it can get into the silicone and stay there. If you decide later to get Fresh water shrimp, it could kill them just from the trace amounts thats forever stuck in the tank. Manually removing them is the safest way to keep the ones you want. Some people suggest that dropping a piece of cucumber, zucchini, carrot, or lettuce into the aquarium overnight can get them to gather on the vegetable making it easer to remove more in one shot. I have no idea if that works or not.

[cr0wley]

On 7/5/2023 at 6:56 AM, JimOp said:

Personally I would never use copper in an all glass tank. The issue with copper is that it can get into the silicone and stay there. If you decide later to get Fresh water shrimp, it could kill them just from the trace amounts thats forever stuck in the tank. Manually removing them is the safest way to keep the ones you want. Some people suggest that dropping a piece of cucumber, zucchini, carrot, or lettuce into the aquarium overnight can get them to gather on the vegetable making it easer to remove more in one shot. I have no idea if that works or not.

I just set a green bean in a glass dish in the tank. Going to see how many I can clear out. 

 

On 7/5/2023 at 2:49 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Most dechlorinators will have a "works for 24 hours" statement as well as a clarification of recommending only to dose at most once per 24 hours.  The product removes oxygenation from the water and using too much, too often can cause stress.

Ultimately, daily 50% (or higher) water changes are your friend at the time of poor water parameters.  That being said there are other things to investigate and look into.
 

Do you have parameters for KH?  Not sure what that 4th one over is on this chart.  With regards to the test you're using are we talking strips?

 

Oxygenation is your friend!  More on this in a moment, I'm trying to catch up on all of the posts...

Alright.... so there's a lot going on.  Photos help immensely, so if possible please upload some shots of what you're dealing with.  A photo of the filtration and how it works may be beneficial as well. 

Let's say that your filtration is adequate, but the pump on the filter or the design of the filter for whatever reason isn't giving you enough oxygenation.  This could lead to PH drops.  This also could lead to stability issues and something like "old tank syndrome" symptoms showing up.  The goal here is to minimize stress and to increase stability....

If this were my tank I would approach the issue in a few main avenues. 
`1.  Consider a 20H or 20L as opposed to a 10G if stocking is a concern.
2.  Review / improve filtration, add an auxiliary filter, or boost up the biological side of the filter in some capacity.  Clean and verify all equipment is working properly, test everything and verify with a secondary test if possible.
3.  Check for sources of stress (disease, aggression) and contamination to the water quality.  This could just be time to do a deep clean, a few deep siphons, check for bodies, or it could just be time to get the water changes back on rhythm.

If I ever have a tank that shows ammonia or nitrite, then:
-Instant large water change, usually 50-80%.
-dose in dechlorinator as part of this process
-check that tank for issues / deaths
-add in aquarium salt
-Daily water changes (50%) until the issue is resolved
-Deep clean all filtration and clean all equipment. Check all impellers.
-Add in an airstone

I have an airstone in the tank, I would like a 20 gallon long in the future, but am bound by space constraints (eventually going to build a shelving system or get heavier duty racks rated for over 250lbs. Do you think it is a good idea to keep a sponge filter going in the tanks along with their primary filter just for backup? 

 

What exactly does the aquarium salt do? I've heard it recommended often for illnesses, but I'm curious about the mechanism. 

 

 

The HOB is a Top Fin Pro 30, which is close to a clone of the Aquaclear 30s. I purposefully picked a larger filter since I knew I was going to be pushing the bioload a bit. I'm just pissed off at myself that I removed the coral from the filter originally, I'm thinking that the fish death + coral removal is what uncycled my tank.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/5/2023 at 2:47 PM, cr0wley said:

I have an airstone in the tank, I would like a 20 gallon long in the future, but am bound by space constraints (eventually going to build a shelving system or get heavier duty racks rated for over 250lbs. Do you think it is a good idea to keep a sponge filter going in the tanks along with their primary filter just for backup?

What exactly does the aquarium salt do? I've heard it recommended often for illnesses, but I'm curious about the mechanism. 

There is no need to add auxiliary filtration, but it doesn't hurt.  I think adding an airstone is a nice balance, especially in a low-tech tank with plants or in a tank where you have fish that come from rivers and like that higher oxygenation.

Salt...

Well salt does a lot of things and I'll try to dig up some research studies here to demonstrate a few points.

Research study regarding adding salt when shipping fish:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4332845/

Research study regarding salt impact on plants and substrate:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332335333_Testing_salt_stress_on_aquatic_plants_effect_of_salt_source_and_substrate

General article about salt use in the industry:
https://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/The-Use-of-Salt-in-Aquaculture.pdf

Article / Study based around salt use with Corydoras species (common stated as sensitive to salt, without evidence):
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=3981357&pid=11114&
 

Some benefits of salt use:
-Reduces Osmotic stress on fish
-Increases the ability for the fish to intake oxygen (increased gill function)
-Removes or Eliminates parasites and Protozoans
-Adds minerals to the water

Some risks of salt use:
-Some species are sensitive! (knowing what to dose, how much, is critical for it's use, just like everything you add to the tank)
-Some plants are sensitive! (echo the above, it is often recommended to remove plants)
-Some species are sensitive due to TDS (GH and KH) changes due to adding salt. (This is a species by species thing and is due to osmoregulation biology differences)
-Changes the water viscosity and can reduce overall circulation (so add an airstone whenever you use salt!)

[cr0wley]

On 7/5/2023 at 9:54 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

There is no need to add auxiliary filtration, but it doesn't hurt.  I think adding an airstone is a nice balance, especially in a low-tech tank with plants or in a tank where you have fish that come from rivers and like that higher oxygenation.

Salt...

Well salt does a lot of things and I'll try to dig up some research studies here to demonstrate a few points.

Research study regarding adding salt when shipping fish:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4332845/

Research study regarding salt impact on plants and substrate:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332335333_Testing_salt_stress_on_aquatic_plants_effect_of_salt_source_and_substrate

General article about salt use in the industry:
https://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/The-Use-of-Salt-in-Aquaculture.pdf

Article / Study based around salt use with Corydoras species (common stated as sensitive to salt, without evidence):
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=3981357&pid=11114&
 

Some benefits of salt use:
-Reduces Osmotic stress on fish
-Increases the ability for the fish to intake oxygen (increased gill function)
-Removes or Eliminates parasites and Protozoans
-Adds minerals to the water

Some risks of salt use:
-Some species are sensitive! (knowing what to dose, how much, is critical for it's use, just like everything you add to the tank)
-Some plants are sensitive! (echo the above, it is often recommended to remove plants)
-Some species are sensitive due to TDS (GH and KH) changes due to adding salt. (This is a species by species thing and is due to osmoregulation biology differences)
-Changes the water viscosity and can reduce overall circulation (so add an airstone whenever you use salt!)

Thank you. Do you know if neon tetras and zebra danios are fine with aquarium salt?

Does it look like I have enough media in the filter? I have 2 sponges, a carbon pad, and then 2 bags of bio rings.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/5/2023 at 7:53 PM, cr0wley said:

Thank you. Do you know if neon tetras and zebra danios are fine with aquarium salt?

Yes they are fine with salt.  You don't want to use it regularly or anything, but for disease or if you see something, it's a valid tool.

 

 

On 7/5/2023 at 7:53 PM, cr0wley said:

Does it look like I have enough media in the filter? I have 2 sponges, a carbon pad, and then 2 bags of bio rings.

Carbon pad usually isn't required and you can place it with some more sponge if you need to.  You should have enough media. Yes.

[Andy's Fish Den]

I would pull a handful of the stones in the tank out, lay out on a towel and pat it dry. Take some white vinegar and put a few drops on the stones. If it starts bubbling, fizzing, it will affect the pH of the water. If it doesn't then it is inert and wont affect it. 

As for the snails, I would not worry about them. They will adjust themselves to the food levels for them in your tank. If you overfeed and have a lot of dead plant material in the tank, they will explode in population, if there isn't much of those then they will stay steady. Think about it, if you smash them against the glass, they are dying in the tank, and if you do a bunch, well that can add to ammonia problems as well. Yes, some fish may et the bits and pieces of them after being smashed, but not all fish will. All of my tanks have snails in them, bladder, Malaysia trumpet, pond snails, and you would be amazed how many are in some of the tanks that you see after the lights go off. 

I would buy some new test strips or kit just to double check that the one you've been using isn't giving you false readings. Also, check your source water, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. It does no good to do a water change if the source water has a bunch of ammonia or anything else. I always discourage new fishkeepers not to chase ph. Use what your local tap water is, fish are surprisingly adaptable, and if you get fish from a local or even somewhat local LFS, most likely their water parameters are very similar to yours and if the fish are doing good for them, they will do well for you. I have not come across a LFS that has the time, money and resources to have a bunch of RO water and remineralize for different parameters for the various regions of the world. 

[JimOp]

@cr0wley About snails. Can you get a rough count as to just how many snails are actually in your tank. I would guess dozens just from glossing over the pictures.

@Andy's Fish Den And more on the snails:
 Again, I never told them to smash them on the glass, I told them that is how I handle them in my 40 gallon breeder with fish that eat them.

Summery:
 We are looking at a high bioload 10 gallon tank that has killed a fish. It has a PH of 6.0 high nitrites and high nitrates. They lost a single gourami. They have at least 8 neon tetras and and unknown number of zebra danios and an explosion of snails judging from the picture. On the subject of snails, how many snails are already dead from the tank PH going up and down from 6 to 7.1 to 6 every three days?  You cant tell because there are possibly dozens of snails in the tank. I stand by the fact that I feel he needs to reduce the number of snails in his tank. Snails are not zero bioload, they eat crap, algae and they poop, they breath Oxygen and they die. Snails also reproduce like crazy so the act of removing a bunch of them costs nothing.

The source water is listed in the Thread. They also uses fluval biostratum that they were buffering with crushed coral to get a stable PH but had removed it. The assumption is the PH drop is from having Fluval biostratum and then removing the Crushed coral from the filter. PH of 6.0 and below can kill off the beneficial bacteria. Something they kept adding with every water change and could also be the cause of the nitrite/nitrate issues. Testing the stones is a great idea, I had suggested they remove them while trouble shooting. I looked up fluval biostratum.  While I have never used it, I seen references to it drastically lowering PH to 6.5 or even 6.0.  Putting crushed coral back in his filter may be the solution for the PH, but I am not sure having never used  fluval biostratum.

On 7/3/2023 at 6:25 PM, cr0wley said:

Source water is ph 7.6, amm 0, nitrite 0, nitrates 0-5. I also remembered that I do have the fluval biostratum in the 10g, which buffers the PH slightly, but shouldn't be affecting the ph as much as whatever is going on is. I did a teaspoon of baking soda and brought the ph from 6 to 7.2, and added bacteria.

Edited July 6, 2023 by JimOp

[cr0wley]

On 7/6/2023 at 8:09 AM, JimOp said:

@cr0wley About snails. Can you get a rough count as to just how many snails are actually in your tank. I would guess dozens just from glossing over the pictures.

@Andy's Fish Den And more on the snails:
 Again, I never told them to smash them on the glass, I told them that is how I handle them in my 40 gallon breeder with fish that eat them.

Summery:
 We are looking at a high bioload 10 gallon tank that has killed a fish. It has a PH of 6.0 high nitrites and high nitrates. They lost a single gourami. They have at least 8 neon tetras and and unknown number of zebra danios and an explosion of snails judging from the picture. On the subject of snails, how many snails are already dead from the tank PH going up and down from 6 to 7.1 to 6 every three days?  You cant tell because there are possibly dozens of snails in the tank. I stand by the fact that I feel he needs to reduce the number of snails in his tank. Snails are not zero bioload, they eat crap, algae and they poop, they breath Oxygen and they die. Snails also reproduce like crazy so the act of removing a bunch of them costs nothing.

The source water is listed in the Thread. They also uses fluval biostratum that they were buffering with crushed coral to get a stable PH but had removed it. The assumption is the PH drop is from having Fluval biostratum and then removing the Crushed coral from the filter. PH of 6.0 and below can kill off the beneficial bacteria. Something they kept adding with every water change and could also be the cause of the nitrite/nitrate issues. Testing the stones is a great idea, I had suggested they remove them while trouble shooting. I looked up fluval biostratum.  While I have never used it, I seen references to it drastically lowering PH to 6.5 or even 6.0.  Putting crushed coral back in his filter may be the solution for the PH, but I am not sure having never used  fluval biostratum.

I'd wager 30-45 snails. I've been doing more reading about old tank syndrome, and I think that old tank syndrome + the death + the removal of coral initiated the crash. I'm about a week and a bit more in on doing daily wc's, de ammoniafication, and gravel vaccing. 

[JimOp]

On 7/6/2023 at 9:27 PM, cr0wley said:

I'd wager 30-45 snails. I've been doing more reading about old tank syndrome, and I think that old tank syndrome + the death + the removal of coral initiated the crash. I'm about a week and a bit more in on doing daily wc's, de ammoniafication, and gravel vaccing. 

I doubt it is old tank syndrome. You seem to be well on top of your regular maintenance and water changes. You even keep a log of your water tests. Old tank syndrome is typically from lack of tank maintenance. It is a gradual lowering of water quality so slow the fish climatize to it and not affect fish in the tank, but it will kill new fish you try to add. Ignore the fish death as being part of the problem. You would see a massive ammonia spike first and it would not continue to fowl a tank after the large number of water changes you have done. Big PH swings alone can kill fish and beneficial bacteria. Acidic water can strip fish slim coats and can also burn their gills. 
At a basic level a cycle look sorta like this:

• You feed fish
• fish poop
• poop breaks down and turns into ammonia (snail poop included)
• one form of bacteria converts ammonia to nitrites 
• Another form of bacteria converts nitrites to nitrates
• Nitrate is then converted to nitrogen gas by denitrifying bacteria, some Nitrate is used by plants.
  Water changes also help remove Poop, nitrate and nitrite and are important when things are not balanced

Do you have an updated water test, take it a couple hours after a water change? Please provide all values even if zero.

About the snails, If it where my tank I would reduce the snail count to a max 10 getting rid of as many babies as I can find. But, as you can see their are differing opinions on snails. 

My guess is one or a combo of both the substrate and/or aquarium rocks as being the issue. You could test some of the rocks as a previous poster suggested. Just because the stones came from an aquarium company doesn't mean they are safe.

Edited July 7, 2023 by JimOp

[cr0wley]

On 7/7/2023 at 7:21 AM, JimOp said:

I doubt it is old tank syndrome. You seem to be well on top of your regular maintenance and water changes. You even keep a log of your water tests. Old tank syndrome is typically from lack of tank maintenance. It is a gradual lowering of water quality so slow the fish climatize to it and not affect fish in the tank, but it will kill new fish you try to add. Ignore the fish death as being part of the problem. You would see a massive ammonia spike first and it would not continue to fowl a tank after the large number of water changes you have done. Big PH swings alone can kill fish and beneficial bacteria. Acidic water can strip fish slim coats and can also burn their gills. 
At a basic level a cycle look sorta like this:

• You feed fish
• fish poop
• poop breaks down and turns into ammonia (snail poop included)
• one form of bacteria converts ammonia to nitrites 
• Another form of bacteria converts nitrites to nitrates
• Nitrate is then converted to nitrogen gas by denitrifying bacteria, some Nitrate is used by plants.
  Water changes also help remove Poop, nitrate and nitrite and are important when things are not balanced

Do you have an updated water test, take it a couple hours after a water change? Please provide all values even if zero.

About the snails, If it where my tank I would reduce the snail count to a max 10 getting rid of as many babies as I can find. But, as you can see their are differing opinions on snails. 

My guess is one or a combo of both the substrate and/or aquarium rocks as being the issue. You could test some of the rocks as a previous poster suggested. Just because the stones came from an aquarium company doesn't mean they are safe.

What I realized is that I had gotten complacent with the tank after it had been set up for a while. I slowed way down on wcs, was doing mostly topoffs, and not gravel vaccing once the aquarium became fully established. I know I messed up by not maintaining wcs and cleaning teh debris of nitrites/nitrates.

[JimOp]

I would not worry too much about cause, it isn't as important as recognising an issue and fixing it. Your tank should be on the road to recovery.  The water changes should have made a pretty decent dent in nitrites and nitrates by now. So please post updated water test results.

[cr0wley]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:46 PM, JimOp said:

I would not worry too much about cause, it isn't as important as recognising an issue and fixing it. Your tank should be on the road to recovery.  The water changes should have made a pretty decent dent in nitrites and nitrates by now. So please post updated water test results.

 

 

Gotcha. Thanks guys.

[cr0wley]

I'll get current tests up later tonight, have been insanely busy and distracted. I did notice that it looks like a bacterial bloom in the tank, is that a good thing now?

[cr0wley]

Current params are 6.4 ph, 0.5-1.0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 20-30 nitrates. It looks like its starting to swing around. 

[JimOp]

I would continue water changes especially with ammonia levels elevated.

[cr0wley]

On 7/8/2023 at 7:44 PM, JimOp said:

I would continue water changes especially with ammonia levels elevated.

Yup, I plan on it. Since my nitrites are zero this time it looks like its starting to come around. I have some bottled bacteria that should be delivered Monday for a final kickstart.

[JimOp]

Ammonia of 1.0 is dangerously high. Ammonia and Nitrates are both very toxic. 

[cr0wley]

On 7/8/2023 at 7:55 PM, JimOp said:

Ammonia of 1.0 is dangerously high. Ammonia and Nitrates are both very toxic. 

Of course lol.

[JimOp]

I meant Ammonia and Nitrites. 

[Galabar]

In the meantime, you can use Prime to tie up that ammonia.  It will complex with it, turning it less/non-harmful to your tank inhabitants.  However, it can still be consumed by your biological filtration.  You can test and re-dose every 24 hours.

 

[cr0wley]

On 7/8/2023 at 11:37 PM, Galabar said:

In the meantime, you can use Prime to tie up that ammonia.  It will complex with it, turning it less/non-harmful to your tank inhabitants.  However, it can still be consumed by your biological filtration.  You can test and re-dose every 24 hours.

 

Yes, I've mentioned in the posts that I've been using API Aqua Complete which is their Prime.