Would breeding Apistogramma Cacatuoides with Agassizii work?

[TheSwissAquarist]

For those who have read my journal, they might know that I have been trying (and failing) to breed my favourite fish on the planet = Apisto Agassizii 'Fire Red'. 

Having had around 10 spawns over the last 2 months or so, I have decided to free myself of my apparently sterile male.

I have been toying with the idea to interbreed Apistos for quite a while. So I'll either attempt a Cacatuoides x Agassizii cross, or I'll cross Fire Red with some other colour morph from the A. Agassizii genetic group.

Any thoughts?

Please note that I will not sell the potential offspring of the Cacatuoides x Agassizii crossing. 

[AnimalNerd98]

Interesting breeding project! I don't know much about the interrelatedness between these two species but you may get some viable offspring out of them (whether they are sterile or not).

Perhaps you'll make headway on the next flowerhorn (because Flowerhorns are hybrid fish, themselves). A lot of Endlers sold nowadays are also hybrids of Endlers and guppies. Alien bettas are also hybrids of different wild betta species. Genetic and conservation ethics aside, I think selling hybrid fish is fine as long as the seller is transparent of what they are selling (even though you don't plan on selling them). Just saying that hybrid fish are not inherently bad, especially if we're not using these hybrids in conservation breeding programs, haha. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by AnimalNerd98

[TheSwissAquarist]

If I find that the hybrid is viable and quite beautiful, I may give some away to some friends; but if it’s the weakest thing since wet tissues, I’ll keep it or cull it

[anewbie]

First your male is likely not sterile; but your water is too hard. 2nd cross breeding agassizii with cockatoo is unlikely to work given that these two species are not closely related.

[TheSwissAquarist]

Thanks @anewbie, I have noticed that they aren’t willing to breed. The tank water is at 6.5 pH and water is borderline too soft

[anewbie]

On 10/2/2022 at 1:20 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

Thanks @anewbie, I have noticed that they aren’t willing to breed. The tank water is at 6.5 pH and water is borderline too soft

It is no where close to being too soft. Also tds is important but if they aren't willing to breed there is another issue. Not sure if 'they' are the cockatoo and a Agassizii or the two Agassizii. Anyway if the Agassizii are breeding but eggs hatching not hatching it is almost certainly that the tds is too high.

[TheSwissAquarist]

What I meant by too soft was the GH or KH or whatever you call it. Seeing as I’m trying to breed a lot of fish for an event, I’ve temporarily stopped my hybrid attempt.

Thanks anyway, @anewbie!

[anewbie]

On 10/2/2022 at 5:07 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

What I meant by too soft was the GH or KH or whatever you call it. Seeing as I’m trying to breed a lot of fish for an event, I’ve temporarily stopped my hybrid attempt.

Thanks anyway, @anewbie!

What is your gh/kh. In their native habitat gh/kh for Agassizii are near 0 with tds below 10.... ph can be quite a bit below 5.... Anyway tds here is important.

[tolstoy21]

On 10/2/2022 at 2:20 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

Thanks @anewbie, I have noticed that they aren’t willing to breed. The tank water is at 6.5 pH and water is borderline too soft

I breed both Agasizzi and Cacatuodies (separately, not to each other) in water with no KH and around 3 Gh. I'd agree that it can't be too soft for these fish.

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/2/2022 at 8:52 PM, anewbie said:

What is your gh/kh. In their native habitat gh/kh for Agassizii are near 0 with tds below 10.... ph can be quite a bit below 5.... Anyway tds here is important.

tds: 7 ish

gh/kh: 2-4

On 10/2/2022 at 10:29 PM, tolstoy21 said:

I breed both Agasizzi and Cacatuodies (separately, not to each other) in water with no KH and around 3 Gh. I'd agree that it can't be too soft for these fish.

I gave up on interbreeding about 2 days ago because they just weren’t interested.

[anewbie]

On 10/2/2022 at 11:28 PM, TheSwissAquarist said:

tds: 7 ish

gh/kh: 2-4

I gave up on interbreeding about 2 days ago because they just weren’t interested.

With gh 2 it is difficult to believe that tds is 7. The substance required to raise gh that high would impact tds.

[TheSwissAquarist]

I’m not exactly using Co-Op multi test strips so I can’t be certain and I don’t want to blow a decent chunk of $ on an electric meter.

On 10/3/2022 at 9:23 AM, anewbie said:

With gh 2 it is difficult to believe that tds is 7. The substance required to raise gh that high would impact tds.

How should I lower it?

[anewbie]

On 10/3/2022 at 9:28 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

I’m not exactly using Co-Op multi test strips so I can’t be certain and I don’t want to blow a decent chunk of $ on an electric meter.

How should I lower it?

A tds meter is around $15 on amazon. The only pragmatic way to lower it is to mix tap water with ro water; distill water or rain water.  However, i would not touch it without knowing the actual value. It could be anywhere between 30 and 300. You could check your area water report and see if they provide any insights. However given your skill level i suspect you probably are best off not tinkering with it and focus on breeding fishes that readily breed in your tap water. I'm not trying to be harsh but you have made several broad statements in this thread that suggest a lack of understanding in several areas and it would be better to work on your knowledge of such things before moving forward.

Edited October 3, 2022 by anewbie

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/3/2022 at 4:46 PM, anewbie said:

You could check your area water report and see if they provide any insights.

Will do! 

On 10/3/2022 at 4:46 PM, anewbie said:

I'm not trying to be harsh but you have made several broad statements in this thread that suggest a lack of understanding in several areas

It’s OK, I’m working on it, just I expect you also had a bit of a limited space to spread your wings when you were in high school.

Hoping to try and work on my aquarium chemical knowledge.😏

[tolstoy21]

A lot of my apistos will breed in various conditions. My agassizii and cacatuodies have both bred for me in a Gh as high as 9. The TDS in a lot of my tanks is close to 300, but not all of that is comprised of Gh/Kh. Even in tanks that have little to no Kh/Gh, my TDS is very high. However, this doesn't impact the species at all. In fact, I have caridina shrimp living in that (the hitch hiked into one of my tanks on some plants and I just left them there and they are as happy as can be!).

All of this is to say that both the species you currently have 'appreciate' soft/acidic water, but don't require it to successfully breed. Especially if they are many generations removed from wild caught.  

My guess is those two species won't show an interest in breeding, but it won't be because of the water parameters.

Edited October 3, 2022 by tolstoy21

[anewbie]

On 10/3/2022 at 3:48 PM, tolstoy21 said:

A lot of my apistos will breed in various conditions. My agassizii and cacatuodies have both bred for me in a Gh as high as 9. The TDS in a lot of my tanks is close to 300, but not all of that is comprised of Gh/Kh. Even in tanks that have little to no Kh/Gh, m TDS is very high. However, this doesn't impact the species at all. In fact, I have caridina shrimp living in that (the hitch hiked into one of my tanks on some plants and I just left them there and they are as happy as can be!).

All of this is to say that both the species you currently have 'appreciate' soft/acidic water, but don't re

cockatoo are generally a white water fish and it is not surprising they will breed in harder waters. agassizii are more of a mix and a lot depend on their source and such. Wild agassizii are i believe are a clear water fish; certainly wild ones will require softer water to breed. 300 tds and gh  9 seems pretty high even for domestic ones so a bit surprise but still and interesting data point. 

 

However i would be truly socked if someone managed to breed a agassizii with a cockatoo.

Edited October 3, 2022 by anewbie

[tolstoy21]

On 10/3/2022 at 4:53 PM, anewbie said:

300 tds and gh  9 seems pretty high even for domestic ones so a bit surprise but still and interesting data point. 

I do keep the Gh much lower these days, but the TDS is still in the 200s.  Most of the TDS is made up something that's not measurable by an aquarium test kit. My guess is that some of it, but certainly not all of it, is sodium ions from ion-exchange resin I use to remove nitrates from my well water.

[TheSwissAquarist]

Thanks for all the info!