Sexing Apistos

[Mattlikesfish36]

Any advice with sexing this pair of apistos? I originally thought that the one in the solo picture was a male because it is much bigger and beefier than the other, but now I am starting to question it because of the black ventral fins. I have been waiting since I received them in June to see if they will grow larger fins and color up but haven’t had much luck beyond what is in the photos. I’m starting to get very frustrated because I was told that it is a guaranteed pair but I think I may have 2 females 

[TheSwissAquarist]

What species are they? 
A male is usually the one about 1.5 times the size of the female.

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 9/17/2022 at 12:50 PM, TheSwissAquarist said:

What species are they? 
A male is usually the one about 1.5 times the size of the female.

@TheSwissAquaristthey were listed as cacatuoides when I bought them online. One of them is about that much bigger than the other, but I am not seeing the colors or the elongated dorsal fin to convince me it is a male. The larger one tends to chase the smaller one and I have seen it swimming almost vertically and wagging its tail at the other one. Thanks for your reply!

[TheSwissAquarist]

We’ll that is certainly no A.Cacatuoides!

The swimming vertically etc sounds like territorial behavior.

@Guppysnail, I hope you don’t mind if I tag you, but you can probably tell the species of these fish better that I can ! (I’ve only kept Agassizii, Borelli, Mcmasteri, and Cacatuoides)

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 9/17/2022 at 1:10 PM, TheSwissAquarist said:

We’ll that is certainly no A.Cacatuoides!

The swimming vertically etc sounds like territorial behavior.

@Guppysnail, I hope you don’t mind if I tag you, but you can probably tell the species of these fish better that I can ! (I’ve only kept Agassizii, Borelli, Mcmasteri, and Cacatuoides)

@TheSwissAquarist I was having doubts about the species as well. Here is the link from where I purchased them 

https://www.aquariumfishsale.com/products/apisto-cacautuoides?_pos=1&_sid=7b8a36701&_ss=r

[Guppysnail]

On 9/17/2022 at 1:10 PM, TheSwissAquarist said:

We’ll that is certainly no A.Cacatuoides!

The swimming vertically etc sounds like territorial behavior.

@Guppysnail, I hope you don’t mind if I tag you, but you can probably tell the species of these fish better that I can ! (I’ve only kept Agassizii, Borelli, Mcmasteri, and Cacatuoides)

I have never kept Apisto. Thank you for thinking of me. Sorry I can’t help. 

[tolstoy21]

I would say the fish in the center of both pictures (is that the same fish?) is, in my opinion, a female if these are A. Cacatuoides.  In Cacatuoides the females typically, but not always, display those vertical black bars on the ventral fins. I don't normally see this in the males.  The dorsal and caudal fins are also distinctly female.

That fish strikes me as an Cacatuoides female in body shape, and the black patterning, but just without the typical orange that's found in the fins current double and triple red lines.

Am I correct in assuming that the fish in the center of both photographs is the same fish? If so, can you capture a better picture of the second fish?

Below is a picture of a female I just snagged off the interwebs that I'm going to guess is much closer to wild caught than the ones that have been selectively bred to have vibrant orange fins.

On 9/17/2022 at 1:05 PM, Mattlikesfish36 said:

One of them is about that much bigger than the other, but I am not seeing the colors or the elongated dorsal fin to convince me it is a male.

Yeah, please post a more detailed picture of this fish if you can. But I'm going to double down on my opinion that you are right, the one in the center of both photos is a female.

Edited September 17, 2022 by tolstoy21

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 9/17/2022 at 4:53 PM, tolstoy21 said:

I would say the fish in the center of both pictures (is that the same fish?) is, in my opinion, a female if these are A. Cacatuoides.  In Cacatuoides the females typically, but not always, display those vertical black bars on the ventral fins. I don't normally see this in the males.  The dorsal and caudal fins are also distinctly female.

That fish strikes me as an Cacatuoides female in body shape, and the black patterning, but just without the typical orange that's found in the fins current double and triple red lines.

Am I correct in assuming that the fish in the center of both photographs is the same fish? If so, can you capture a better picture of the second fish?

Below is a picture of a female I just snagged off the interwebs that I'm going to guess is much closer to wild caught than the ones that have been selectively bred to have vibrant orange fins.

Yeah, please post a more detailed picture of this fish if you can. But I'm going to double down on my opinion that you are right, the one in the center of both photos is a female.

@tolstoy21thank you so much for your detailed response and all of the information. All of this information makes me think that I have two females. Are you the same Tolstoy that I have seen on aquabid? If so, you may have a purchase coming your way… 

 

these were the best photos I could get of the second fish. You were correct in assuming that the fish in the center of both is the same fish 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Mattlikesfish36

[tolstoy21]

On 9/17/2022 at 5:04 PM, Mattlikesfish36 said:

@tolstoy21thank you so much for your detailed response and all of the information. All of this information makes me think that I have two females. Are you the same Tolstoy that I have seen on aquabid? If so, you may have a purchase coming your way… 

Yup, that's me.

I took one of my photos and made it black and white in an attempt for us to ignore the colors of the fish because the extent of color (and patterning for that matter) in the fins is a result of selective breeding. I would focus more on size of the fish over all and the fin shape itself, as seen below.

However, in my experience, the males and females can remain a similar size for a bit, but then the female simply stops getting bigger and reaches its max size, while the male keeps growing. The male isn't bigger from day-one, or even month one or two. It just grows larger over time. 

There is also a bit or variation in the size of a male fish, from one specimen to another, based on its dominance in a tank and its access to food quality and quantity.  So, it's very possible for both fish to be the same size, but a different sex, but over time, the male (if yours is a male) will get much larger than the female.

Fin shape, however, begins to develop much earlier. But that also takes time to fully develop. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by tolstoy21

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 9/17/2022 at 5:14 PM, tolstoy21 said:

Yup, that's me.

I took one of my photos and made it black and white in an attempt for us to ignore the colors of the fish because the extent of color (and patterning for that matter) in the fins is a result of selective breeding. I would focus more on size of the fish over all and the fin shape itself, as seen below.

However, in my experience, the males and females can remain a similar size for a bit, but then the female simply stops getting bigger and reaches its max size, while the male keeps growing. The male isn't bigger from day-one, or even month one or two. It just grows larger over time. 

There is also a bit or variation in the size of a male fish, from one specimen to another, based on its dominance in a tank and its access to food quality and quantity.  So, it's very possible for both fish to be the same size, but a different sex, but over time, the male (if yours is a male) will get much larger than the female.

Fin shape, however, begins to develop much earlier. But that also takes time to fully develop. 

@tolstoy21thank you so much for all of this. Here are photos from one more angle. The fish decided to turn right after I posted the previous ones. I’m guessing that it’s a female and is just much smaller than the other one based on all of your information. Looks like I got two females and the “guaranteed pair” wasn’t a guarantee after all… 

[tolstoy21]

@Mattlikesfish36 If you can catch a photo of it with its fins flared (easier said than done!) that would be very helpful. That's where I would focus my attention if coloration isn't helping you as an identifying characteristic.

[tolstoy21]

Still hard to say from the photos.

I would continue to look at these two fins (circled in blue) and see if they start to extend in length out past the base of the tail.

If you look at examples of females, those fins typically do not extend much out past their tail's base.

I have sexed a bajillion of these, but I will fully admit that my experience with them is solely based on fish that have been selectively bred, so I don't know how much the exaggerated fin shapes are a result of that lineage and/or what's normal in something closer to wild caught.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

Ok one more reply!

I found pictures of wild caught males and females. I would look to these for comparison to your fish, and less at the tank-bred 'red' lines.

Male

Female

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 9/17/2022 at 5:34 PM, tolstoy21 said:

Ok one more reply!

I found pictures of wild caught males and females. I would look to these for comparison to your fish, and less at the tank-bred 'red' lines.

Male

Female

@tolstoy21thanks for including these photos! The fin shape continues to make me lean toward two females because they don’t extend beyond the base of the tail in either of them. I’m so disappointed because I have been quarantining them and feeding them live baby brine all summer with hopes that they will grow and show larger fins, but it seems like confirmed double females 

[tolstoy21]

I'm still firmly in the undecided category. But you see them daily, so you undoubtedly have a much better perspective on them. I guess if they are over 4 months of age at this point, then my feeling is that the 'male' should already begin showing characteristics of that sex, especially in a tank whose only other occupant is a female.