Java Fern Decline: Why?

[redfish]

After doing some research, it's interesting that the potassium is low if you are using easy green 1-2 times a week.  Easy green has a nutrient analysis of NPK 2.66 - 0.46 - 9.21 where something like API Leaf Zone has a nutrient analysis of 0-0-3 so it's mainly adding potassium and a bit of iron.  Pumping in 9% potassium weekly isn't enough it seems.

[PineSong]

On 8/6/2022 at 9:27 PM, redfish said:

After doing some research, it's interesting that the potassium is low if you are using easy green 1-2 times a week.  Easy green has a nutrient analysis of NPK 2.66 - 0.46 - 9.21 where something like API Leaf Zone has a nutrient analysis of 0-0-3 so it's mainly adding potassium and a bit of iron.  Pumping in 9% potassium weekly isn't enough it seems.

I do not know enough about plants to know which plants suck up a lot of which nutrients, but maybe something that is or was in the tank was really going through it? It complicates matters that since the tank has been set up, the number and variety of plants has always changed.

The tank used to have an absolutely giant sword, two normal sized swords, a very large aponogeton ulvaceous, about ten java ferns (wendelov variety), pogostemon stellatus octopus, one anubias, assorted other stem plants which never thrived, duckweed, salvinia, and frogbit. Red root floaters did not survive there, and neither did mini water lettuce. 

I removed the giant sword due to space constraints, the aponogeton went dormant and was replaced with a fresh bulb, the pogostemon dwindled to a single sprig, the anubias is fine, hygrophila and bacopa and water sprite all died out and duckweed has crowded out the salvinia. 

I'm not sure what all of that indicates about the water, but I'll keep observing and if the potassium seems to help the moss and ferns, maybe I'll try some stems again.

[redfish]

In my short time with plants, I've not had good success with stem plants.  I tried pogostemon stellatus octopus.  It is not taking off like I hoped. Now I have new water sprite but it's going through the initial shock/melt phase I think.  Leaves are browning.  My new swords and anubias are in the shock phase I think also.  I'm interested in how potassium helps your situation.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/6/2022 at 10:20 PM, redfish said:

In my short time with plants, I've not had good success with stem plants.  I tried pogostemon stellatus octopus.  It is not taking off like I hoped. Now I have new water sprite but it's going through the initial shock/melt phase I think.  Leaves are browning.  My new swords and anubias are in the shock phase I think also.  I'm interested in how potassium helps your situation.

The water sprite should not be all the way in the substrate; make sure to leave the crown out. If you see an area where the leaves connect to the roots, that should not be buried. Or you can float it.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[redfish]

Thanks.  Here is a picture of it planted.  Is that too deep?

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/6/2022 at 10:52 PM, redfish said:

Thanks.  Here is a picture of it planted.  Is that too deep?

I think it may be too deep? You should be able to see the part where the plant meets the roots above the substrate.

More info here

[redfish]

Thanks. I’ll check that article out. I might let the experiment run another week or so to see how it’s responding. I remembered the tallest parts got bent when cleaning before planting. Waiting to see if it will die back or pull through. 

[PineSong]

Another update: It's been about three weeks since I started dosing the potassium along with Easy Green. There has been new green growth including some leaves developing the frills at the end that Wendelov should have. I've noticed that the plant that is growing right behind the ferns (I think it is sagittaria but not 100% sure) has started to yellow. Some leaves are entirely yellow.

I"m wondering if that means I should split the difference and only add potassium once a week instead of twice.

If I have to choose between favoring the ferns and the sag I'm not sure who to favor. The sag adds height, provides some fry cover (is that even a benefit at this point, though, hmmm?) and does not go through temper tantrums of turning brown and dying. On the other hand, the Wendelov looks so lovely when it is thriving and the sag is a plain jane at all times. 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by PineSong
clumsy typing

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 8/14/2022 at 11:48 AM, PineSong said:

Another update: It's been about three weeks since I started dosing the potassium along with Easy Green. There has been new green growth including some leaves developing the frills at the end that Wendelov should have. I've noticed that the plant that is growing right behind the ferns (I think it is sagittaria but not 100% sure) has started to yellow. Some leaves are entirely yellow.

I"m wondering if that means I should split the difference and only add potassium once a week instead of twice.

If I have to choose between favoring the ferns and the sag I'm not sure who to favor. The sag adds height, provides some fry cover (is that even a benefit at this point, though, hmmm?) and does not go through temper tantrums of turning brown and dying. On the other hand, the Wendelov looks so lovely when it is thriving and the sag is a plain jane at all times. 

 

 

Hi @PineSong

Glad to hear the potassium in resulting in an improvement for your java fern.  The yellowing of your Sag is not related to the dosing of potassium, in fact there is no negative interaction between potassium and most important plant nutrients.  If new leaves are emerging 'white' that might suggest insufficient available iron.  Easy Green does contain iron but unfortunately it is EDTA chelated iron which is basically unavailable to plants if the pH is greater than 7.0.  At a pH of 6.5 only 50% of the iron in solution is available to plants.  So if the pH of your tank is greater that 6.5 the likely source of your 'white' leaves is lack of available iron.  There are forms of iron that are available to plants at high pH levels such as DTPA chelated iron, EDDHA chelated iron, or ferrous gluconate which can be found in Seachem Iron.  Hope this helps! -Roy

[redfish]

Nice update and following information. Thank you.   

[PineSong]

Thank you @Seattle_Aquarist. My pH is between 6.4 and 6.8 consistently. I think I am going to wait and see. Maybe my sag has always had a few yellowish leaves and I wasn't noticing it because I wasn't paying such close attention until the decline of the ferns made them much more visible, but I don't think so. I'll see what happens next. It's always something with these water gardens!

[PineSong]

Another update on the Java ferns: they continue to improve. There is one in this photo that still looks crummy but it doesn't count because I just moved it here from the shrimp tank so it's only had the benefits of added potassium for a few days.

Overall, I'm happy with the plants in the tank even though my latest batch of aponogeton bulbs mostly did not hatch. Only one baby plant has emerged and it's apparently some kind of mini-aponogeton that doesn't know it's supposed to fill the tank and then some. Cute but not the 'drama' I was going for 🙂

 

[redfish]

Thanks for the update.   Good to hear things are continuing to improve.

[rockfisher]

How are you guy adding potassium? What product I make my own with KCl and distilled water. I do it for holes in my Amazon swords. 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 8/5/2022 at 6:46 PM, PineSong said:

Well, it's been about twp weeks since I added Seachem Potassium to my 2x per week ferts dose and I wanted to show progress so far. One rhizome that was reduced to just root fibers has begun to put out new leaves that look green and healthy, you can see it on the wood here:

 

Others have some new growth and I am going to cut off all the old brown stuff so I can track progress there better. 

Interestingly, although I've bough java moss three times in the past year, I've not been able to grow it at all and as far as I knew, there was none left in this tank. Since dosing the Potassium, I see it starting to grow and take off, looking green and vigorous. 

The tank is a little sparse on plants at the moment because I removed a large sword and the bulbs I put in to replace it and my old aponogeton haven't really picked up steam yet. But I'm liking the new wood I got at Sandy's Pet Shop when I was in Louisville for the ALA. 

 

 

Hi @PineSong

Glad to hear the suggestion seems to be resulting in improvement.  Remember that the leaves that were existing before the change will not improve, watch your new leaves as they emerge and mature.  -Roy