Easy Green & Ammonia?

[AndreaW]

I've heard Easy Green is supposed to increase Nitrates, but does it also increase Ammonia? Or does vacuuming the gravel stir up Detritus and increase Ammonia?

I did a water change on my 10G Betta tank and vacuumed the gravel. I did not test before (since I tested a few days ago).

I added EG and then decided to test. I was going to test just the Nitrates since I know I'm usually low on those, but decided to test everything while I was at it. Ammonia was .5-1.0ppm. 

I hadn't dumped out my water from the change so I tested it and there was 0ppm Ammonia in the tank before the change and addition of EG. I tested the tank water again just to be sure it wasn't a testing mistake, and I still got an Ammonia reading of .5-1.0ppm after.

If the gravel vacuuming stirred things up and increased the Ammonia, then the water change bucket with all the detritus should have Ammonia in it, too, right?

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @AndreaW

Since Easy Green does not disclose the ingredients so there is not way of knowing if there is ammonia in it or not however it is more likely that doing a gravel vac, and stirring up the substrate, is what caused the spike in ammonia levels.  Possibly nitrites and nitrates as well.  I never gravel vac except along the front glass if a unsightly buildup or algae and mulm build up.  -Roy

[Widgets]

Interesting. I don't think I have ever tested immediately after a water change. If I have a problem, I would test again the day after water change to see if I need another water change.

Another possibility would be the ammonia coming from your source water. I assume you have city water. Who knows what the water treatment plant is needing to treat for. They may have upped the chloramines or something. Next time, maybe test your source water, then dose with easy green and test again. This will show a before and after to help understand what is happening. 

I found this thread.

 

[JoeQ]

I would think you could do an ammonia test on the contents of the easy green itself. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by JoeQ

[AndreaW]

On 3/21/2022 at 1:28 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

it is more likely that doing a gravel vac, and stirring up the substrate, is what caused the spike in ammonia levels.  Possibly nitrites and nitrates as well.  I never gravel vac except along the front glass if a unsightly buildup or algae and mulm build up.  -Roy

I was mostly vacuuming up the mulm on the surface and didn't disturb much gravel in the process, but if that was the case, wouldn't it show up in the bucket of water I pulled from the tank from the gravel vacuum? 

I had 0ppm Nitrites, and <5ppm Nitrates, and no ammonia in my tap water (but I do have some nitrates in the tap).

@Widgets ~ I DID use Prime so that could be why it's showing Ammonia! Thank you for sharing that thread!

@JoeQ ~ Hmmmm, to further test this theory, I could fill a 5G bucket and test 3 ways:

• just tap water (I've tested recently and no Ammonia, so probably none still)
• add Prime (I suspect this is where the test would show Ammonia, even though it's not really there)
• add 1/2 pump EG (I would suspect no Ammonia)

 

[JoeQ]

Id test the bottled easy green itself just to be through 😂

[Patrick_G]

I like the way you’re troubleshooting this. It’ll be interesting to see what you find. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Patrick_G

[AndreaW]

I filled a bucket to 3 gallons and pulled out (4) samples of 5mL of each of the combinations:

• Tap water
• Tap water with EG added (1mL)
• Tap water with Prime added (1mL)
• Tap water with both EG (1mL) & Prime (1mL) added

I stuck with 3G because it was easy to fill and dump from a 5G bucket. I dosed 1mL because it was approx. 3x the recommended dose and I felt it would show results a little easier. 

I used API liquid test kits. I have an old kit I've been using and I know the Ammonia test has changed since my kit was made. Since there was no expiration date, I've been using it up and I only have a few drops left. I have had it detect Ammonia in my tank while I was cycling, and I expected it because I had overfed and there was uneaten food in the tank. However, the old Ammonia test kit did give me unusual results -- but only when EG & Prime were mixed together. 

Anyway, all that is to explain why there are 3 tests for every condition, and Ammonia has two results. The first result, or tube on the left, is the old API Ammonia test. The middle is the new Ammonia test, and the tube on the right is the Nitrate test (added just because I was interested).

The results:

My interpretation of the results (I held them up to the cards with light shining through and held a bit in front of a white card to get a true reading. What shows in the photo might be slightly off):

My conclusion: There's definitely something up with my old Ammonia test kit . For some reason it really doesn't like the Prime & EG combination! This pretty much nulls the Ammonia readings from the old test, and it's time to throw it out anyway.

With the new Ammonia test kit, if you line up the most Ammonia to the least Ammonia (even though it is very close and all under .25ppm), it would be:

1. Tap Water
2. Tap water with Prime & EG
3. Tap water with EG
4. Tap water with Prime alone

So, at the end of the day, I'm left with more questions -- go figure! I'm going to test the tank water with the new Ammonia test kit to see what it reads tonight, but dinner first.

[Widgets]

I love this. The design of experiment was well thought out, trying to consider the variables and their interaction. The unexpected results can may mean that there were some uncontrolled variables that are important to the results.

Did you properly rinse the test tubes with the test water before filling? This helps ensure that there are no residues.

How careful were you with the meniscus when filling the test tubes? This helps ensure the proper sample volume is used.

Did you hold the bottle the same and apply the same pressure when extracting the drops? This helps ensure the proper reagent volume is used.

How close in time were the drops added and the colors examined? This helps ensure the proper time for the reaction to happen and the indicator color to develop.

How close in time were the 4 samples tested? This helps ensure that the comparative color ranking is using equally aged samples.

Bottom line: For any experiment there will be some measurement noise. If you were to repeatedly measure your tap water, what range of measurement values will you get? Any variation in test results across two samples that is less than the measurement noise should be discounted.

All too often we want an exact number. Many times, a qualitative answer is better than a quantitative answer.

I would just consider all 4 samples to be in the 0ppm - 0.25ppm range, with no significant difference.

[AndreaW]

On 3/21/2022 at 8:07 PM, Widgets said:

I love this. The design of experiment was well thought out, trying to consider the variables and their interaction. The unexpected results can may mean that there were some uncontrolled variables that are important to the results.

Did you properly rinse the test tubes with the test water before filling? This helps ensure that there are no residues.

How careful were you with the meniscus when filling the test tubes? This helps ensure the proper sample volume is used.

Did you hold the bottle the same and apply the same pressure when extracting the drops? This helps ensure the proper reagent volume is used.

How close in time were the drops added and the colors examined? This helps ensure the proper time for the reaction to happen and the indicator color to develop.

How close in time were the 4 samples tested? This helps ensure that the comparative color ranking is using equally aged samples.

Bottom line: For any experiment there will be some measurement noise. If you were to repeatedly measure your tap water, what range of measurement values will you get? Any variation in test results across two samples that is less than the measurement noise should be discounted.

All too often we want an exact number. Many times, a qualitative answer is better than a quantitative answer.

I would just consider all 4 samples to be in the 0ppm - 0.25ppm range, with no significant difference.

Uncontrolled variables are a definite issue. The test tubes were cleaned and dry but I didn't rinse them with the test water prior to filling. I did add/remove a drop to get them all even and held the API bottles completely vertical, but there could have been a slight variation in drops. I lined up all the vials in order and added drops to all vials of Ammonia, then shook them all, then proceeded to the second ammonia and nitrates, so each nitrate test (for example) were done within seconds of each other (how long it took to drop 10 drops in and then move on to the next). All were shaken at the same time. So there was a slight variation there. Overall, there would be some noise but I think results were relatively equal.

I'm beginning to think there's something else I'm missing. Why did all samples show some Ammonia -- even if it was a small amount? One thing that was constant was the use of tap water, washed vials, and the use of the bucket.

So, I ran some more Ammonia tests (only the new test, because I'm discarding the old Ammonia test). I didn't think my tap water had Ammonia, so I tested it straight from the tap into the vial. I also got some distilled water straight from a jug. Then, I did a vial of water from the water change that I had left over in a pitcher.

Tap (left), Distilled (middle), water change from tank (right):

ALL show 0ppm Ammonia!

So, I'm right back to -- where did the Ammonia come from?? If the tap water is showing no ammonia, then what changed beside a few hours from one test to the next? The first time, I used the bucket for all the tests. So, I grabbed the bucket and filled it with a little tap water and let it sit for a few minutes, then tested the bucket water.

Bingo! Ammonia = .25ppm!

Some may remember my post about my driftwood and Ammonia:

Yes, decaying driftwood can create Ammonia -- but so can buckets! I remember reading about someone here who set up some tubs in their back yard as mini ponds and they said they were having problems with Ammonia and they checked with whoever they got the tubs from and were told that the plastic tubs were probably leeching ammonia. 

But, this raises another question... When I tested the water from the water change -- that was in the same bucket -- I got a reading of 0ppm (on the old Ammonia test). This was consistent with the water from the buckets with the old Ammonia test. If I were to test that water again with the new Ammonia test, what would the result be? Unfortunately, that water is residing in my happy houseplants so the experiment is pretty much over. *sigh* I suspect the new Ammonia test would have picked up Ammonia the same as the others.

FINAL CONCLUSION:

My original Ammonia test I did on the aquarium water after the change was done with the old Ammonia test. As seen in my original test, there was definitely something very wonky with the Ammonia test when Prime and EG were combined together. This is why my original test looked like I had Ammonia, when I really didn't have any.

However, water from the 5G buckets I've been using from Home Depot and Lowe's both appear to leech Ammonia into the water but further testing may be necessary to prove/disprove this theory. Let's leave that for another day. In the meantime, I think I'm going to pick up a food-grade bucket to use for my water changes. And with the mystery mostly, kind of, somewhat solved, I'm off to bed! 

[Widgets]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:55 AM, AndreaW said:

I think I'm going to pick up a food-grade bucket to use for my water changes

I have a food grade bucket that I use for the new water fills and an old washing powder bucket that I use for the discarded old tank water. That way I lessen the risk of cross contamination. 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:55 AM, AndreaW said:

Yes, decaying driftwood can create Ammonia -- but so can buckets! I remember reading about someone here who set up some tubs in their back yard as mini ponds and they said they were having problems with Ammonia and they checked with whoever they got the tubs from and were told that the plastic tubs were probably leeching ammonia

I remember reading that thread. I seem to recall that the tubs were previously used to store ammonia, and had absorbed some to leach out later. Was this bucket the one you used to soak yourr driftwood? If so, the longer the fresh water was in the bucket the more ammonia could leach out, until equilibrium is reached. As the ammonia absorbed in the bucket disputes the concentration leached out will decline.

[AndreaW]

On 3/22/2022 at 4:26 AM, Widgets said:

I have a food grade bucket that I use for the new water fills and an old washing powder bucket that I use for the discarded old tank water. That way I lessen the risk of cross contamination. 

I remember reading that thread. I seem to recall that the tubs were previously used to store ammonia, and had absorbed some to leach out later. Was this bucket the one you used to soak yourr driftwood? If so, the longer the fresh water was in the bucket the more ammonia could leach out, until equilibrium is reached. As the ammonia absorbed in the bucket disputes the concentration leached out will decline.

Good idea. I think I'll use the blue bucket as my dirty bucket and I'll pick up a food-grade (white) bucket for fresh water (which I typically only have to use for the 446G water changes).

To pull the water out I used a different bucket (blue) than I used to soak the driftwood (orange). This blue bucket was new and had only been used to hold my plants for a couple days until I re-scaped the 46G tank. So it had water and EG in it with the plants.