Water chemistry

[VanDogh]

I apologize in advance as English is not my native language and I am very new to all the termology of water buffers, mineral content and all of that.

Either way, my tap water is hopelessly hard. It is so hard, in fact, that white residues are left when it dries. When using sticks to measure this I get a confirmation that I indeed, have an exceptionally high GH, KH & pH.

I'm trying to understand reverse osmosis and my head is spinning because it's all so technical and I am so dumb. It's really expensive and if I have understood it correctly, I need to change filters every now and then? Are there any cheaper and easier alternatives? I have heard of Water softener systems, Electronic water descaler, TAC filters (?) But I am not sure if these works for aquariums? I also do not understand how any of this work please help me. Please explain this as if you are talking to a caveman

Ooga booga I don't understand

Also I found these reaaaallly pretty chert/flint-nodules-lime stones and it will also affect hardness and pH so I was thinking of using soft water during water changes (made by some water-softener blah blah) in combination with peat moss, catappa leaves and mangroves, will this keep it all in check?

I am really poor and can't afford ohko stones aka dragon stones, alright 😭 I will have to make do with what I have. These stones have been boiled in water to remove contaminants and bacteria.

[face]

What number are you getting from you tests let’s start there and what do you want to keep that you can’t because of it? There’s nothing technically wrong with hard water if the tank is set up for it 

as for an ro system it’s not complacent really the water goes through a fine filter to get rid of small stuff in the water then a carbon filter that gets rid of chlorine and other chemicals then it goes through a ro membrane and that’s just a real fine filter at the end of the day then some water goes down the drain and some is stored to be used and ya you have to replace the filter cartridges every so often 

for most people I don’t think that is necessary just setting up the tank for the water you have is much easier then fighting it 

[VanDogh]

On 6/6/2024 at 4:36 PM, face said:

What number are you getting from you tests let’s start there and what do you want to keep that you can’t because of it? There’s nothing technically wrong with hard water if the tank is set up for it 

pH maybe 8.0-8.5

KH 720ppm or 40 ⁰dH

GH  between 300-1000 ppm or 16.8—56 ⁰dH

This test is purely tapwater from a glass of water. 

Most of my species (corys, tetras, bristlenose plecos, amano and bamboo shrimp, blue gouramies) prefer acidic water. Though they are still alive (the majority of them) and therefore tolerating my water, I want them to spawn.

On 6/6/2024 at 4:36 PM, face said:

as for an ro system it’s not complacent really the water goes through a fine filter to get rid of small stuff in the water then a carbon filter that gets rid of chlorine and other chemicals then it goes through a ro membrane and that’s just a real fine filter at the end of the day then some water goes down the drain and some is stored to be used and ya you have to replace the filter cartridges every so often 

When I Google there are a lot of complicated pictures and I don't really understand anything I am reading. Is it expensive to buy new cartridges? 

Since I want to add stones that will affect the water even more I find it necessary to have som way of making the water softer, not only pH but also lowering the mineral content

Edited June 6 by VanDogh
Forgot to mention that a few fish died

[Pepere]

On 6/6/2024 at 11:06 AM, VanDogh said:

Since I want to add stones that will affect the water even more I find it necessary to have som way of making the water softer, not only pH but also lowering the mineral content

If you have really hard water, the stones will not affect it nearly as much as if you had really soft water…

I am thankful I live in an area with exceptionally soft water…

[VanDogh]

So it should be safe to use the stones? 

Lucky you! In all honesty, my water is perfect for malawi cichlids but I care about plants and I'm really interested in aquascaping 🫠

[mynameisnobody]

@VanDogh most Malawi cichlids with either eat or destroy plants, just a matter of time. 

[Tony s]

The question is where do you want your water to be at. Hard water high ph is normal for most people. And most of your fish will be fine in it. Most will even spawn. If you can get the water down to mostly neutral ph, you should really be good. Ro is about the only way you’ll move those values that much. Yes you’ll probably “waste” some water creating Ro as it goes through the membrane. Not really wasted, it’s going to get recycled at your treatment plant. But costs a bit more is all. You’d need a ton of organic materials to get softer water and I really don’t think you can consistently get there. Ro is easier. Then mix your Ro with your tap and get a number you can live with. Easier to mix with tap instead of adding chemicals back in to your Ro. And wouldn’t worry a ton about the plants either. Water that’s high in minerals is good for plants. 

[face]

I’m always the path of least resistance kind of person but if you really do want to have soft water you are going to need an ro system or maybe something like seachem regulator or acid buffer 

cost wise it’s hard for me to answer I don’t know what prices are like where you live and different water clogs the filters at different rates.  the pre filter are generally cheap the carbon filters are around 15 to 20 the membrane filters are around 40 to 70 that’s for me how often you charge them depends around here the first two are replaced every few months and the membrane every year 

how much water do you need? These filters put out about 50 to 100 gallons a day or so your going to need a place to set it up and a large bin to store the water before use so keep that in mind to 

and if you want soft water don’t use the stone it will break down hardening the water again it’s fine if you already have hard water but it would fight you trying to make it softer 

[Tony s]

On 6/6/2024 at 2:40 PM, face said:

maybe something like seachem regulator or acid buffer

yeah, i use those on my ro. they are a way to regulate the kh of the water. they don't do much with the gh. for that you'd need equilibrium. which only raises gh

[Sacah]

Changing the params are a constant cost, lowering pH is cheaper, RO more expensive. How long have you given your creatures to spawn, maybe allow them plenty of time to see how your current water goes and if you have no luck, try lower pH first and again give them plenty of time, if still no luck, you can decide if you want to go down the RO route. Though be realistic, if you're buying the cheapest fish food because you need to run an RO system, I'd put the money towards improving the quality of the fish food over changing those water params.

[VanDogh]

On 6/6/2024 at 6:59 PM, mynameisnobody said:

@VanDogh most Malawi cichlids with either eat or destroy plants, just a matter of time. 

Yes indeed, which is why I don't keep them though they would propably like my water 😉

 

On 6/6/2024 at 7:29 PM, Tony s said:

The question is where do you want your water to be at. Hard water high ph is normal for most people. And most of your fish will be fine in it. Most will even spawn. If you can get the water down to mostly neutral ph, you should really be good. Ro is about the only way you’ll move those values that much.

Neutral would be good I think. Most fish have tolerated my water but a few of them died which is why I am worrying about the hardness and pH (as well as I want them to breed) though the cause of death could be something else, I'll never know.

As of now I am gathering rain water for my tiny 7 gallon tank, where I have very sensitive tetras. For my 60 gallon I don't think it's a sustainable way to get softer water.

On 6/6/2024 at 7:29 PM, Tony s said:

You’d need a ton of organic materials to get softer water and I really don’t think you can consistently get there.

I don't know if I am right, but making the water more acidic won't change the mineral content or am I wrong? Organic materials would just add acidity?

On 6/6/2024 at 7:29 PM, Tony s said:

And wouldn’t worry a ton about the plants either. Water that’s high in minerals is good for plants

So my water is fine? I am a bit confused haha. 

On 6/6/2024 at 8:40 PM, face said:

I’m always the path of least resistance kind of person but if you really do want to have soft water you are going to need an ro system or maybe something like seachem regulator or acid buffer 

What is a seachem regulator and acid buffer? 

 

On 6/6/2024 at 8:40 PM, face said:

cost wise it’s hard for me to answer I don’t know what prices are like where you live and different water clogs the filters at different rates

The currency here is different but I estimate the average reverse osmosis filter to equal 2-300 usd which is like 1/4 of my monthly income and the more pricy ones seems to go for about 4300 usd.

On 6/6/2024 at 8:40 PM, face said:

the pre filter are generally cheap the carbon filters are around 15 to 20 the membrane filters are around 40 to 70 that’s for me how often you charge them depends around here the first two are replaced every few months and the membrane every year 

So like, 120 usd each year to replace the filters?

 

On 6/6/2024 at 8:40 PM, face said:

how much water do you need? These filters put out about 50 to 100 gallons a day or so your going to need a place to set it up and a large bin to store the water before use so keep that in mind to

I have one 60 gallon, one 7 gallon, one 14 gallon and one empty tank at 119-ish gallons that will be started when I have the stuff to do it 🙂 Do these filters always create so much water everyday? Or can you chose to turn it off and on? 

On 6/6/2024 at 8:40 PM, face said:

and if you want soft water don’t use the stone it will break down hardening the water again it’s fine if you already have hard water but it would fight you trying to make it softer 

So if I use these stones in hard water, they won't affect my water and make it dangerously hard? 

On 6/6/2024 at 11:39 PM, Sacah said:

Changing the params are a constant cost, lowering pH is cheaper, RO more expensive.

Is it possible to maintain a low pH with hard water?

On 6/6/2024 at 11:39 PM, Sacah said:

How long have you given your creatures to spawn, maybe allow them plenty of time to see how your current water goes and if you have no luck, try lower pH first and again give them plenty of time, if still no luck, you can decide if you want to go down the RO route.

A couple of months but I suspect that my pH needs to be lowered further for them to spawn. One of my other species did spawn already but they stopped recently, which is why I was thinking if something in my water needs to be changed.

On 6/6/2024 at 11:39 PM, Sacah said:

Though be realistic, if you're buying the cheapest fish food because you need to run an RO system, I'd put the money towards improving the quality of the fish food over changing those water params

Not sure if the food I buy is bad. I have these:

 Vibra bites Baby 5g, Hikari

 Tropical wafers 150g, Ocean Nutrition

 Freshdelica Daphnia 16x3g 48g, Tetra

 Artemiaflakes 100ml, Ci-Tropic

 Colourflakes 100ml, Ci-Tropic

I recently bought some bloodworms that I am figuring out how to feed them since they are way too many in one portion and they're all freezed. I also am awaiting delivery for freeze-dried bloodworms 

[Sacah]

That food should be ok. You can look at the price of lowering your pH, there are chemicals for lowering pH, some will also lower to say 7 but not go lower if you are worried about going too far, though with your water you can just add a bit more and you'll raise it again quick.

Peat moss is also a good longer term one to lower it, check the prices for what is best in your area.

In reality, fish breed in your area will be used to your water conditions rather than the conditions reported online where they traditionally came from.

If you need to go down the RO route, honestly I'd choose different fish, at the costs you mentioned, it's not worth it.

 

[VanDogh]

On 6/7/2024 at 2:07 AM, Sacah said:

That food should be ok. You can look at the price of lowering your pH, there are chemicals for lowering pH, some will also lower to say 7 but not go lower if you are worried about going too far, though with your water you can just add a bit more and you'll raise it again quick.

I did buy some Tetra pH/KH minus. There aren't any that will alter GH?  Thanks, I'll keep that in mind 🙂

On 6/7/2024 at 2:07 AM, Sacah said:

Peat moss is also a good longer term one to lower it, check the prices for what is best in your area.

I found one good brand with no added additives so I will propably buy it. Can I use it under the substrate (sand)?

On 6/7/2024 at 2:07 AM, Sacah said:

In reality, fish breed in your area will be used to your water conditions rather than the conditions reported online where they traditionally came from.

Fair enough. I think in general, the water is very hard in this whole county, but I also live close to a quarry so I am thinking that this in particular also have an affect on the local water. So I should propably not import fish and always buy local 

On 6/7/2024 at 2:07 AM, Sacah said:

If you need to go down the RO route, honestly I'd choose different fish, at the costs you mentioned, it's not worth it.

Yeah it feels very expensive which is why I was wondering if there are better and more affordable options. Not sure there are any species I am particularly interested in that likes hard water but I am open to it 

[Sacah]

Peat moss will also lower GH, though I don't think it will be much for you. I haven't used peat moss, but when I looked into it a while back, I thought it looses it's effectiveness over time, so putting it somewhere that you can easily change it was prefered, maybe someone with first hand experience can weight in.

Maybe have a search too, because it can turn the water a darker color, so some people soak it first.

[VanDogh]

@Sacah I heard you could boil it to remove potential contaminants, maybe it will remove the 'tannins' that makes water darker?

I see. I could perhaps use filter bags if it needs to be replaced

[Sacah]

I had a look around, some people soak it for a few days after boiling, but I didn't mind the brown hue after I added driftwood, and it seemed to clear itself up over a few weeks. If you put the peat moss somewhere easy to access, you can always remove it if it makes your water too brown and soak it in a bucket for longer I guess?

[VanDogh]

Yes that makes sense. I also found out that some people use seed cones from trees? I will propably use both catappa and peat moss at least 🙂