My plan for an RO/DI filter

[Cjbear087]

On 4/4/2024 at 7:19 PM, jwcarlson said:

Absolutely.  I'd add that you also want to aerate it (just an airstone in the bottom) and dechlorinate it.  You can put the decholorinator into the main tank and pump the water in that way.  I typically do not put dechlorinator in the barrels because then they tend to get a little slimy.

 

Most of the other discussion above is aimed at making sure it's a sustainable system for you because after your 700th water change on the same fish you're going to be glad that you streamlined the process. 🙂

So should I aerate it overnight with the heater and that will be enough? Also with the dechlorinator should I treat the whole tanks volume or just the new water? (Also before or after adding new water?) thanks

[jwcarlson]

On 4/4/2024 at 1:30 PM, Cjbear087 said:

So should I aerate it overnight with the heater and that will be enough? Also with the dechlorinator should I treat the whole tanks volume or just the new water? (Also before or after adding new water?) thanks

Yes, that should be enough.  But you do need to test your water for before and after pH.  You can do that anytime.

With the dechlorinator I treat for the whole volume and dump it right into the main tank before adding new water.

For smaller water changes I won't dose for the whole tank.  But if I'm doing say 50% or more, which I almost always am, then I dose for the whole tank.

[Cjbear087]

On 4/4/2024 at 7:32 PM, jwcarlson said:

Yes, that should be enough.  But you do need to test your water for before and after pH.  You can do that anytime.

With the dechlorinator I treat for the whole volume and dump it right into the main tank before adding new water.

For smaller water changes I won't dose for the whole tank.  But if I'm doing say 50% or more, which I almost always am, then I dose for the whole tank.

Ok, thanks for all of your help

[Cjbear087]

On 4/4/2024 at 7:29 PM, madmark285 said:

You might need 2 garbage cans 🙂 I think your Discus tank will be a success,  you are doing your homework and seeking advice. 

What filter are you going to use? No clue if this is any good but the Penn-Plax Cascade 1200  Canister Filter is on sale for $130. You could get 2 of those for the price of a Fluval FX filter. 

I am going to get the Juwel Rio 350 tank, and it comes with a sponge filter and pump which I’ve heard is very good and capable so I think I’m just gonna stick with that

On 4/4/2024 at 7:19 PM, jwcarlson said:

Absolutely.  I'd add that you also want to aerate it (just an airstone in the bottom) and dechlorinate it.  You can put the decholorinator into the main tank and pump the water in that way.  I typically do not put dechlorinator in the barrels because then they tend to get a little slimy.

 

Most of the other discussion above is aimed at making sure it's a sustainable system for you because after your 700th water change on the same fish you're going to be glad that you streamlined the process. 🙂

Also, on the off chance that my softener doesn’t have a bypass and I cannot get one installed, I could still repeat these exact same steps but with RODI water right? Only extra thing I would have to do is remineralise but everything else should be identical right? Might just have to manage time slightly differently as container will take much longer to fill

[jwcarlson]

On 4/4/2024 at 1:47 PM, Cjbear087 said:

Also, on the off chance that my softener doesn’t have a bypass and I cannot get one installed, I could still repeat these exact same steps but with RODI water right? Only extra thing I would have to do is remineralise but everything else should be identical right? Might just have to manage time slightly differently as container will take much longer to fill

Yes, but just RO is MORE than sufficient and a little bit cheaper.  

Other things that might not have been addressed earlier in the thread is that RO takes a long time to make (normal units for this type of application are rated something like 50-100 gallons per day).  So that that into consideration.  Most of these units also have reject ratios of something like 1:5.  Meaning that you get 1 gallon of RO and you reject 5 gallons so for each gallon of water you actually use 6 gallons.  For me, water is fairly inexpensive, but do be aware that it could start racking up your bill if you live in an area where water is pricey.  And in the long run it's going to be quite a bit more expensive as your RO membrane will eventually need to be replaced and if you're not on a private well, your water is going to cost at least some amount more.

[Cjbear087]

On 4/4/2024 at 8:13 PM, jwcarlson said:

Yes, but just RO is MORE than sufficient and a little bit cheaper.  

Other things that might not have been addressed earlier in the thread is that RO takes a long time to make (normal units for this type of application are rated something like 50-100 gallons per day).  So that that into consideration.  Most of these units also have reject ratios of something like 1:5.  Meaning that you get 1 gallon of RO and you reject 5 gallons so for each gallon of water you actually use 6 gallons.  For me, water is fairly inexpensive, but do be aware that it could start racking up your bill if you live in an area where water is pricey.  And in the long run it's going to be quite a bit more expensive as your RO membrane will eventually need to be replaced and if you're not on a private well, your water is going to cost at least some amount more.

Ok, so basically use normal tap water if I can, if not get an RODI.

Forgot to ask, what do you mean monitoring the pH and testing? Would you mind elaborating little bit? Thanks, I just want to make sure I’m doing everything right lol

[jwcarlson]

On 4/4/2024 at 2:23 PM, Cjbear087 said:

Ok, so basically use normal tap water if I can, if not get an RODI.

Forgot to ask, what do you mean monitoring the pH and testing? Would you mind elaborating little bit? Thanks, I just want to make sure I’m doing everything right lol

Normal tap water if you can.  Otherwise JUST an RO, without the DI (you can get the DI, but it's completely unnecessary for any normal fishkeeping).  One other thing that would be good is to know what your water looks like before suggesting that you use it.  It's possible that you have ammonia and high nitrates coming out of the tap and if that's the case, everything we're suggesting kind of goes to pot.  So do understand we're assuming you have hard, but otherwise safe, tap water.

 

As far as checking pH.  Run your tap for a minute or two so you're not getting pipe water that might have been sitting there for a day.  Catch a cup or jar of water (any quantity is OK, a quart jar for instance is perfect).  Test the pH of that water and write it down.  Drop an airstone into it and bubble that water overnight (or 8 hours is fine if you do it in the morning).  Then test the pH again and make note.  For example, my water comes out of the tap at 7.0.  After aging it gets to 8.2 or 8.3.  The concern here is that you could shock your fish with a big pH shift (especially with big water changes).  If the shift is small say 0.3 or something, it's not a real concern.  I think most people suggest that the shift be less than 0.5.  If you've ever noticed your fish seeming stressed after a water change, it might be because of this type of inconsistency.

The goal being that the water you're for water changes to as exact as the water that remains in the tank as possible most of the time.  Again... this applies "always", but at some low level of water changes, it doesn't really matter because you're only adding back a small amount of unmatched water.  But big water changes obviously it's a bigger deal.  You can certainly compromise, say if your water is 78 instead of 82... that's probably not a problem in most cases.  But if the temp is way off AND the pH is way off maybe you cause enough stress with a water change that you do some damage to some fish.  Or stress them enough that they can't fight off some pathogen that they otherwise are OK dealing with.

Another example of an issue here would be if your water at a low enough pH that ammonia basically isn't toxic, but you do a big water change and pump water in that's got 8.4 pH, you suddenly make that an issue.  

Edited April 4 by jwcarlson

[Cjbear087]

On 4/4/2024 at 8:56 PM, jwcarlson said:

Normal tap water if you can.  Otherwise JUST an RO, without the DI (you can get the DI, but it's completely unnecessary for any normal fishkeeping).  One other thing that would be good is to know what your water looks like before suggesting that you use it.  It's possible that you have ammonia and high nitrates coming out of the tap and if that's the case, everything we're suggesting kind of goes to pot.  So do understand we're assuming you have hard, but otherwise safe, tap water.

 

As far as checking pH.  Run your tap for a minute or two so you're not getting pipe water that might have been sitting there for a day.  Catch a cup or jar of water (any quantity is OK, a quart jar for instance is perfect).  Test the pH of that water and write it down.  Drop an airstone into it and bubble that water overnight (or 8 hours is fine if you do it in the morning).  Then test the pH again and make note.  For example, my water comes out of the tap at 7.0.  After aging it gets to 8.2 or 8.3.  The concern here is that you could shock your fish with a big pH shift (especially with big water changes).  If the shift is small say 0.3 or something, it's not a real concern.  I think most people suggest that the shift be less than 0.5.  If you've ever noticed your fish seeming stressed after a water change, it might be because of this type of inconsistency.

The goal being that the water you're for water changes to as exact as the water that remains in the tank as possible most of the time.  Again... this applies "always", but at some low level of water changes, it doesn't really matter because you're only adding back a small amount of unmatched water.  But big water changes obviously it's a bigger deal.  You can certainly compromise, say if your water is 78 instead of 82... that's probably not a problem in most cases.  But if the temp is way off AND the pH is way off maybe you cause enough stress with a water change that you do some damage to some fish.  Or stress them enough that they can't fight off some pathogen that they otherwise are OK dealing with.

Another example of an issue here would be if your water at a low enough pH that ammonia basically isn't toxic, but you do a big water change and pump water in that's got 8.4 pH, you suddenly make that an issue.  

And would I have to test the ph shift every time I do a water change or just once and assume it will stay like that?

[jwcarlson]

On 4/4/2024 at 3:02 PM, Cjbear087 said:

And would I have to test the ph shift every time I do a water change or just once and assume it will stay like that?

Just once!  I do spot check if I have some sort of issue that makes me think I should be concerned.  It might be good to test in say August and again in February as water can change seasonally.  But once you've done that once there's not a major chance that it changes drastically at any point in the future.

[madmark285]

On 4/4/2024 at 3:56 PM, jwcarlson said:

Normal tap water if you can.  Otherwise JUST an RO, without the DI

So if using a RO system, do you use 100% RO water and add minerals back or mix 'X' amount of RO water with 'X' amount of tap water? Just curious. 

[Cjbear087]

On 4/4/2024 at 9:04 PM, jwcarlson said:

Just once!  I do spot check if I have some sort of issue that makes me think I should be concerned.  It might be good to test in say August and again in February as water can change seasonally.  But once you've done that once there's not a major chance that it changes drastically at any point in the future.

Perfect. Thank you. Also while I’ll have you here, completely unrelated but if I am doing quite a heavily planted tank do I need a co2 kit of liquid co2 or am I fine?

[Tony s]

On 4/4/2024 at 4:15 PM, madmark285 said:

So if using a RO system, do you use 100% RO water and add minerals back or mix 'X' amount of RO water with 'X' amount of tap water?

You can do either. If you have clean tap. A 50/50 mixture of Ro/tap is easy to replicate every time 

I have to remineralize my Ro. As my tap has a hydrogen peroxide injection system to eliminate iron bacteria. Which eliminates beneficial bacteria 

[jwcarlson]

On 4/4/2024 at 3:15 PM, madmark285 said:

So if using a RO system, do you use 100% RO water and add minerals back or mix 'X' amount of RO water with 'X' amount of tap water? Just curious. 

A mix of tap and RO.  I'm only using it for breeding setups and am normally aiming for very low "TDS", so I basically blend trying to hit a TDS.  Usually less than 80 TDS.  I've been aiming for 15 TDS recently.  TDS isn't perfect, but it's a good gauge for what percentage I'm putting in.  Because I'm aiming for a TDS instead of a percentage, it's a bit easier to make a smaller batch if I don't need to change water in all the breeding tanks.  

@Cjbear087 I have absolutely no experience with CO2 injection.  "Liquid CO2" is really just an algae inhibitor.  In my experience it does jack squat and when dosed higher my fish started to get unhappy.  So I quit using it regularly.  Though I have a couple jars and sometimes I'll dose a tank.  I don't really know why I'm doing it, frankly.  😄

[Cjbear087]

On 4/4/2024 at 9:04 PM, jwcarlson said:

Just once!  I do spot check if I have some sort of issue that makes me think I should be concerned.  It might be good to test in say August and again in February as water can change seasonally.  But once you've done that once there's not a major chance that it changes drastically at any point in the future.

Hi, I took some of the water and tested my pH and it came out at 7.5, then I left it for 24 hours and it seems to now be 7.75 to 8 ish. What does this mean from this point now?

[jwcarlson]

On 4/8/2024 at 7:56 AM, Cjbear087 said:

Hi, I took some of the water and tested my pH and it came out at 7.5, then I left it for 24 hours and it seems to now be 7.75 to 8 ish. What does this mean from this point now?

You're probably right around the cusp or perhaps "under" the shift threshold.  I would say that you probably don't need to worry about aging water unless you need a way of pre-heating it.  It's not a bad idea to check again seasonally, at least until you have an idea of how much it might change through the year.  It probably doesn't change much, but it depends on where your city is getting their water.  

Just pay attention after water changes if you see anything that looks like the fish are having a difficult time adjusting.  Once you get through a few of them and if nothing looks off, you are probably home free.

 

[Cjbear087]

On 4/8/2024 at 2:38 PM, jwcarlson said:

You're probably right around the cusp or perhaps "under" the shift threshold.  I would say that you probably don't need to worry about aging water unless you need a way of pre-heating it.  It's not a bad idea to check again seasonally, at least until you have an idea of how much it might change through the year.  It probably doesn't change much, but it depends on where your city is getting their water.  

Just pay attention after water changes if you see anything that looks like the fish are having a difficult time adjusting.  Once you get through a few of them and if nothing looks off, you are probably home free.

 

To be honest I’ll probably have to age my water anyway, as I’ll have to heat the new water in the container which I’ll probs do overnight anyway so it will be being aerated anyway lol

[jwcarlson]

On 4/8/2024 at 8:47 AM, Cjbear087 said:

To be honest I’ll probably have to age my water anyway, as I’ll have to heat the new water in the container which I’ll probs do overnight anyway so it will be being aerated anyway lol

It's not all bad aging and pre-heating.  I do believe it makes a difference for the better.  Aging was pretty "standard" many years ago in the hobby.

[Cjbear087]

On 4/8/2024 at 2:50 PM, jwcarlson said:

It's not all bad aging and pre-heating.  I do believe it makes a difference for the better.  Aging was pretty "standard" many years ago in the hobby.

For future reference, do I need to aerate it with an airstone or is just letting it sit fine?

[jwcarlson]

I'd recommend aerating with an air stone as opposed to just sitting.  It may not make a huge difference with a smaller pH shift, but when heating it will heat more evenly and efficiently.  And it will "age" or degas faster with actual aeration.  I use a power head in one of my barrels because I didn't have great aeration options awhile back.  But it works fine so I've just kept using it even after putting in an air header in that room.

[Cjbear087]

On 4/8/2024 at 9:49 PM, jwcarlson said:

I'd recommend aerating with an air stone as opposed to just sitting.  It may not make a huge difference with a smaller pH shift, but when heating it will heat more evenly and efficiently.  And it will "age" or degas faster with actual aeration.  I use a power head in one of my barrels because I didn't have great aeration options awhile back.  But it works fine so I've just kept using it even after putting in an air header in that room.

Yeah I have no problem doing it when I’m properly aging, but yesterday when I tested the ph shift I didn’t use a stone as I only have 1 and needed it in my tank as there seemed to be low oxygen. So would that be fine?

[jwcarlson]

On 4/8/2024 at 3:52 PM, Cjbear087 said:

Yeah I have no problem doing it when I’m properly aging, but yesterday when I tested the ph shift I didn’t use a stone as I only have 1 and needed it in my tank as there seemed to be low oxygen. So would that be fine?

In a small quantity of water you have a decent surface area for gas exchange in a cup, for instance.  Something like a barrel might have a lot more surface area, but it's got a lot smaller ratio of gallons per unit of surface area.  This is just a random example, mind you and I don't think it's this complex, but the goal is that the entrained gases find their way "out" and it happens much more quickly with aeration.

[Cjbear087]

On 4/8/2024 at 9:59 PM, jwcarlson said:

In a small quantity of water you have a decent surface area for gas exchange in a cup, for instance.  Something like a barrel might have a lot more surface area, but it's got a lot smaller ratio of gallons per unit of surface area.  This is just a random example, mind you and I don't think it's this complex, but the goal is that the entrained gases find their way "out" and it happens much more quickly with aeration.

Yeah I tested it in a tiny bowl, so I think thats fine then