how to tell when Bolivian rams have paired off?

[HelplessNewbie]

On 4/9/2024 at 4:42 PM, HelplessNewbie said:

Thanks, @knee. I will upload more photos later.

Here is one of them together:

I will try for better ones tomorrow. Since I just put them in this tank, I will give them overnight to hopefully calm down.

If they are stressed, they won't care if they are side by side, correct?

[knee]

On 4/9/2024 at 6:19 PM, HelplessNewbie said:

If they are stressed, they won't care if they are side by side, correct?

Not at all. Are they like that everyday?

[HelplessNewbie]

If I caught the correct pair, yes, they were hanging out like that in the qt.

[HelplessNewbie]

I can't seem to get a good photo especially of the breeding tubes.

Here is a video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/6rKU6V1qDu797pSCA

I guess they are wall surfing? I will try to eliminate the reflections.

They follow each other around all day. I don't see them lip locking or pecking at the other's sides. Even if they are both males, they seem to get along right now.

[knee]

On 4/11/2024 at 2:47 PM, HelplessNewbie said:

They follow each other around all day. I don't see them lip locking or pecking at the other's sides. Even if they are both males, they seem to get along right now.

They’re both males. The pelvic fins are touching the anal fins. My 5 females and even the other females I’ve had before always had short pelvic fins and they are never able to touch the anal fin. I’ve only seen that with males. They won’t really bother each other and do enjoy each others company unless they’re trying to spawn. 
 

They do have very nice fins. Trailers are very long and they’re also starting to get trailers on their dorsal fins. 

[HelplessNewbie]

@kneeThank you so much for your help!!! I am thinking I will just have to place them all in the big tank after quarantine, to get them comfy enough to start pairing up.

Any tips on catching them later on?

[knee]

On 4/11/2024 at 6:19 PM, HelplessNewbie said:

Any tips on catching them later on?

The only time I was able to catch them was when I broke down the tank 😂

You can also try at night when the lights are off.
 

How many pairs are you planning to stock? Those two males in the video are very nice looking. I’d say put those two in the main tank and try to get females to put in with them. I can help sex them if you’re able to take photos or videos of all the fish.  

[HelplessNewbie]

On 4/11/2024 at 9:24 PM, knee said:

How many pairs are you planning to stock? Those two males in the video are very nice looking. I’d say put those two in the main tank and try to get females to put in with them. I can help sex them if you’re able to take photos or videos of all the fish.  

I was planning on 2 pairs only, but I wonder if I can squeeze one more pair in this community (20 kubotai rasbora, 10 serpae tetra, 7 cherry barb, 5 cw097 cory, 8 med amano shrimp, 1 mystery snail, 1 unknown sp. from silverside family)? The tank is 48x13.5x23 inches. Maybe the 48x13.5 inch footprint is big enough for 3 pairs? It is currently moderately planted but I plan on making it heavily planted.

Based on your other comment, I guess I have to make sure which individuals I will keep because they will be hard to catch, if I change my mind.

Here are the 2 males today, do they seem no longer stressed?

 

Edited April 17 by HelplessNewbie
removed video

[knee]

On 4/17/2024 at 7:15 AM, HelplessNewbie said:

I was planning on 2 pairs only, but I wonder if I can squeeze one more pair in this community (20 kubotai rasbora, 10 serpae tetra, 7 cherry barb, 5 cw097 cory, 8 med amano shrimp, 1 mystery snail, 1 unknown sp. from silverside family)? The tank is 48x13.5x23 inches. Maybe the 48x13.5 inch footprint is big enough for 3 pairs? It is currently moderately planted but I plan on making it heavily planted.

Based on your other comment, I guess I have to make sure which individuals I will keep because they will be hard to catch, if I change my mind.

Here are the 2 males today, do they seem no longer stressed?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ugQkA9aAGSLMPyCSA

3 pairs will be fine for that tank. They don't look stressed anymore and has actually colored up nicely. Do you have pics of the others? Maybe I can help sexing the others so we can see if you have enough females.

[HelplessNewbie]

On 4/17/2024 at 12:37 PM, knee said:

Do you have pics of the others? Maybe I can help sexing the others so we can see if you have enough females.

Yes, thanks in advance for helping! I will give these 2 another few days before moving them out of this qt into the 65 gallon. Then, I will have photos to share (no good visibility in the quarantine tubs).

[HelplessNewbie]

On 3/29/2024 at 5:20 PM, knee said:

From my observation with my Bolivian rams, that’s how they start the courtship. It will go from little head twitches to flailing the whole body. I also noticed the females would challenge the males and they tend to pair with the male that won’t back down from them. I’ll try to take a video when the lights turn on later. 

I caught the twitching on video, after watching a dozen clips: https://photos.app.goo.gl/hapW6JvNx2idZk366

Why would a male act like he is courting the other male with this seizure-like twitching? The movements didn't match your courting pair's.

Edited April 20 by HelplessNewbie

[HelplessNewbie]

@knee I think these 2 next ones are girls. Please confirm.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/nxLPiKMV1qkSQJRZ6

Edited April 27 by HelplessNewbie

[HelplessNewbie]

On 4/27/2024 at 10:18 AM, HelplessNewbie said:

@knee I think these 2 next ones are girls. Please confirm.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/nxLPiKMV1qkSQJRZ6

@Guppysnail can you help? I think @knee must be away.

[HelplessNewbie]

 

On 4/27/2024 at 10:18 AM, HelplessNewbie said:

@knee I think these 2 next ones are girls. Please confirm.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/nxLPiKMV1qkSQJRZ6

Yesterday, I decided to plunk them into the big tank, and see if a pair forms.

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/yzPwaowV1ZEGGiiD6

Is the above showing nesting behavior? I think the one hollowing out the sand is a female, based on the wider breeding tube.

We don't have flat stones in the tank. Is that a requirement for spawning, or will they just spawn in the sand?

[HelplessNewbie]

These 3 are temporarily in this tank for sexing.

None of them have prominent breeding tubes, so, I cannot tell what they are. Can someone help?

Based on the tail streamers, I think they are all male.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/iBicq5d8FefamSgg7

[Lennie]

Unless you have extreme parameters, they would spawn. These fish are not needy and don't require very specific conditions. Thats the only real way of being sure of a "pair". Otherwise, sexually mature cichlids in general don't spend time together nonstop. If they look like a male and female, and tend to be together all the time, I would say very likely they are a pair.

 

Speaking of the "pairing" here, I remember @beastie sharing her experience about her b.rams not exactly forming long lasting pairs. Maybe she can share some experience as she started with a group of juveniles ended up having two spawning pairs.

[HelplessNewbie]

On 5/10/2024 at 5:37 PM, Lennie said:

Unless you have extreme parameters, they would spawn. These fish are not needy and don't require very specific conditions. Thats the only real way of being sure of a "pair". Otherwise, sexually mature cichlids in general don't spend time together nonstop. If they look like a male and female, and tend to be together all the time, I would say very likely they are a pair.

 

Speaking of the "pairing" here, I remember @beastie sharing her experience about her b.rams not exactly forming long lasting pairs. Maybe she can share some experience as she started with a group of juveniles ended up having two spawning pairs.

Thank you, @Lennie