Fin rot and flashing during quarantine

[bennyblee]

Hi everyone, hoping for some basic guidance regarding my SAE, which has starting flashing and developed some mild fin rot during initial quarantine.

10 days ago I brought home 2 nerite snails, 5 amano shrimp, and 1 young siamese algae eater from my LFS to stock my newly established planted tank. They went into my 10 gallon quarantine tank. It is my first time using this QT, I got it used but it was nuked with bleach several months before the tank was filled and then I cycled with using a fish less cycle with a 20 gallon sponge filter. The water had been in there for a couple months but I did a 50% water exchange to freshen it before adding.

I treated using the quarantine trio. Since my display tank is also brand new, I moved my snails and shrimp over to the display after 1 week without any issues, they are doing great. At that time, I had planned to move the SAE as well but I noticed just the beginnings of a bit of fin rot along the bottom edge of the tail. I did a 50% water change and added 1 tablespoon/3 gallons of aquarium salt, hoping to treat it with salt alone. As soon as I added the salt, my SAE started flashing like crazy. I had not noticed it flash at all during the earlier part of the quarantine.

After 24 hours of incessant flashing, I assumed the salt was too high so did a 40% water change. 24 hours later, the fish was still flashing very frequently. I did another 50% water change and at this point (last night) decided to start treatment with a full course of Paracleanse and Maracyn. I do not see ich or any visible lesions on the fish other than the fin. He is scouring the tank looking for algae to eat and will nibble on bits of algae wafer I drop into the tank.

Parameters:

Ammonia, Nitrite 0, Nitrate <5, pH 7.8, temp 76F, dkH 3, dGH 7.

Does anyone have any additional thoughts? Am I missing something here?

Thanks,

Ben

[Colu]

Any rapid breathing hanging out near the surface lethargy loss of appetite weight loss

[bennyblee]

Hi Colu, no rapid breathing, weight appears fine, continues to eat and graze frequently. Other than in his fits of flashing he looks perfectly fine. He spends half his time resting on or in the gap under the sponge of the sponge filter, then will come out to do frequent rounds of the tank to see if there is any algae on any of the surfaces he's missed, interspersed with sudden fits of violent flashing. I really had thought that the salt was just really irritating and that is what precipitated it, but at this point after my water changes the concentration should be down to less than 1 tablespoon in the entire 10 gallon tank so I feel like its impact should be negligible. I didn't think that the mild fin rot would explain flashing behavior so am worried I am missing something.

[Colu]

On 2/7/2024 at 3:43 PM, bennyblee said:

Hi Colu, no rapid breathing, weight appears fine, continues to eat and graze frequently. Other than in his fits of flashing he looks perfectly fine. He spends half his time resting on or in the gap under the sponge of the sponge filter, then will come out to do frequent rounds of the tank to see if there is any algae on any of the surfaces he's missed, interspersed with sudden fits of violent flashing. I really had thought that the salt was just really irritating and that is what precipitated it, but at this point after my water changes the concentration should be down to less than 1 tablespoon in the entire 10 gallon tank so I feel like its impact should be negligible. I didn't think that the mild fin rot would explain flashing behavior so am worried I am missing something.

What I would do is three course of paracleanse two weeks apart with the violent flashing you described just to rule out a parasitic infection

[bennyblee]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:02 PM, Colu said:

What I would do is three course of paracleanse two weeks apart with the violent flashing you described just to rule out a parasitic infection

Thanks, agree that I should plan to treat empirically for parasites. Can you clarify, did you mean two courses of paracleanse three weeks apart? And any reason to not add the salt back to the regimen since it clearly wasn't the issue?

[Colu]

On 2/9/2024 at 2:54 AM, bennyblee said:

Thanks, agree that I should plan to treat empirically for parasites. Can you clarify, did you mean two courses of paracleanse three weeks apart? And any reason to not add the salt back to the regimen since it clearly wasn't the issue?

With paracleanse you want to do three full course of treatment on week 1 week 3 and week 5 you could add a small amount of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons that will aid Gill function and add essential electrolytes 

[bennyblee]

On 2/8/2024 at 9:57 PM, Colu said:

With paracleanse you want to do three full course of treatment on week 1 week 3 and week 5 you could add a small amount of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons that will aid Gill function and add essential electrolytes 

Gotcha, thanks for the helpful advice!

[bennyblee]

On 2/8/2024 at 9:57 PM, Colu said:

With paracleanse you want to do three full course of treatment on week 1 week 3 and week 5 you could add a small amount of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons that will aid Gill function and add essential electrolytes 

 

Follow-up question regarding paracleanse treatment. I understand part of the rationale for the follow-up treatments is also to treat to for potential re-infections from eggs that have already been laid from the infecting parasites. The eggs would get released into the water column, correct? This being the case, is it the fish that really requires re-treatment, or the tank that the fish is in? If at the end of the first treatment cycle the fish is moved to a completely clean alternate QT, would that remove the need for additional rounds of treatment, provided that it looks well after another couple weeks of observation? It would seem that doing this would remove the risk of reinfection from eggs that may be lurking in the original tank. For this fish I am treating with a second round now, so this more just an academic question than anything. Thoughts?

Thanks!

[Colu]

On 2/24/2024 at 2:48 PM, bennyblee said:

 

Follow-up question regarding paracleanse treatment. I understand part of the rationale for the follow-up treatments is also to treat to for potential re-infections from eggs that have already been laid from the infecting parasites. The eggs would get released into the water column, correct? This being the case, is it the fish that really requires re-treatment, or the tank that the fish is in? If at the end of the first treatment cycle the fish is moved to a completely clean alternate QT, would that remove the need for additional rounds of treatment, provided that it looks well after another couple weeks of observation? It would seem that doing this would remove the risk of reinfection from eggs that may be lurking in the original tank. For this fish I am treating with a second round now, so this more just an academic question than anything. Thoughts?

Thanks!

First course will kill the most of the parasite in your fish a small percentage will survive the initial treatment that why it's necessary to do multiple treatments also eggs that are already present in your tank can reinfect your fish  moving your fish to another tank after the firsts course of paracleanse wouldn't guarantee that your fish are parasite free

[bennyblee]

On 2/24/2024 at 3:08 PM, Colu said:

First course will kill the most of the parasite in your fish a small percentage will survive the initial treatment that why it's necessary to do multiple treatments also eggs that are already present in your tank can reinfect your fish  moving your fish to another tank after the firsts course of paracleanse wouldn't guarantee that your fish are parasite free

Ok thanks!

[bennyblee]

This fish is slowly driving me insane, would appreciate some additional advice given new developments.

Quick recap: I had this SAE in quarantine after bringing home from my LFS along with some rummy nose tetras, treated all with the quarantine trio. It developed some early fin rot along the tail and was flashing intensely, so I moved it out to a separate 5 gallon QT where I treated with maracyn (for the fin rot) and 2 courses of paracleanse 2 weeks apart for the flashing. After about 1 week, it was doing splendidly. It spent another 3 weeks alone in the QT tank until it had finished the second course of paracleanse.

Now for the new developments: I went to my in-laws for three days (I know, I know, mistake right?), after giving the last dose of paracleanse. All was well when I left. When I returned, I found that the heater had broken and the temp was hovering at 66. It was late in the evening and I had no spare heaters. My house is on a Nest so when no one is home the room temp is allowed to drop to 60. It has been like this all winter and the tanks had all held up fine...until this.

I decided to just go ahead and slowly temp and drip acclimatize it to my new display tank, which had been cycled and planted two months earlier, and admittedly is still trying to balance. Remember, by this time both the fin rot and flashing had been resolved for almost 3 weeks.  It acclimated fine and was added to the tank. The display tank is a 65 gallon high, moderately planted, filtration is Fx2, parameters 0/0/5, pH 7.8, temp 76.

Two days after adding the fish, I see that all the fin rot that had healed so nicely had completely returned, as if nothing had happened. What's more, the flashing has returned with a vengeance. It's as if the 5 weeks of treatment hadn't happened at all.

So a few questions:

1. Would folks assume that further paracleanse won't be useful here, since whatever is causing the flashing managed to survive 3 rounds of it? If so, what should I use?

2. Am I better off treating the whole tank now as opposed to catching him and moving out? There are rummy nose tetras, otocinclus, nerite snails, amano shrimp, and a bunch of different plants so whatever I use would need to be safe for all. The tank is full of hardscape so this is going to be a real challenge to catch him, I think I'll have to try a water bottle trap but am not sure if I can entice him in given how much food (algae) is available throughout the tank...

3. Is there any chance at all the flashing could be a territorial display? This fish turns out to be a complete jerk, it is bullying everyone in the tank and claiming it all as his own. It will attack and bite the oto cats. The flashing occurs in fits and is often triggered when another fish or shrimp suddenly encroaches. Despite this, he is living up to his reputation as a professional algae eater. I can't believe how much he's already cleaned up on his own. He's only about 2 inches right now and is just plowing through everything.

Thanks, sorry for being so long-winded.

 

[Colu]

I have never kept SAE can't say wether this typically behaviour as the flashing resolved after treating with paracleanse I would treat the main tank with another course of paracleanse then monitor some times it can take 4 course as some types of parasite have developed some resistance to the medication @bennyblee

Edited March 8 by Colu
Typo

[bennyblee]

On 3/7/2024 at 8:06 PM, Colu said:

I have never kept SAE can say wether this typically behaviour as the flashing resolved after treating with paracleanse I would treat the main tank with another course of paracleanse then monitor some times it can take 4 course as some types of parasite have developed some resistance to the medication @bennyblee

 

Thanks Colu!