75g Broken Cycle Troubleshoot

[AG9]

@nabokovfan87

Tank Lifespan: 1-2 years

Substrate: Estes/Stoney River Black and White since the start. 

Root Tabs: Seachem dosed every 2 months roughly at the base of all plants or intended growth areas. 

Decor: 3 pieces of drift wood and 1 penn-plax castle since the beginning. 

Plants: 3 dwarf lilly, vallisneria, new banana plant (not the first one), lots of crypto flamingos, handful of column feeders, crypt greens, etc. 

2 heaters

Filtration: Fluvial 407 (previously 2 AC110's) and one 110gph marineland power head 

Didn't have this problem while having the 2 AC110's but I realize overstocking typically relates to high nitrates.

Filter media: factory coarse sponges, 1 level of additional coarse sponge, one level of polishing pads 100&50 micron, 2 levels of biomedia. 

Lights: 2 hygger 48" lights

Liquid Fertilizer: 7 pumps of easy Green 1x weekly (true water volume is about 63 gallons I believe).

Fish feeding schedule: M, W, F, Su; Alternate between either bloodworms/brine shrimp for the mid and top fish. Some slow sinking Xtreme or Hikari for everyone. Fluval bottom feeder or algae wafers for the bottom crew. Occasionally throw in cucumber.

Fish: (it's a heavily stocked tank, but I haven't had any issues with anything until adding angel fish which I have since removed and some) 4 dwarf guoriamis (6 months), 2 Siamese algae eaters (3.5"), 9 bleeding heart tetra's (years), 9 glofish (years), 4 mystery snails (2 months but have always snails), 12 neon tetra's (years), 7 amano (years), 2 bristlenose (1+ year), 4 African dwarf frogs (2 for years, 2 are a few months), 6 albino Cory (years), 6 kuhli loaches (years), 2 vampire shrine (new, not sure if they're staying), 2-3 oto's (year or so), 1 hillstream loach (6 months or so).

 

Nitrates have guided me towards water changes every 2 weeks in the past as they wouldn't touch 40ppm until week the end of week 2. Ph sits at 7.0-7.2. Tap water is also 7.0-7.2, essentially 0 nitrates. I dose conditioner per affected water: change 20 dose for 20. 

 

I choose to rinse filter media every other water change and only on alternate weeks and have never alternated or rinsed biomedia. I have a bad habit of not rinsing sponges or filter floss in tank water, I just run it under tap water. I don't vac my substrate.

 

I do have some shedding from plants that I haven't cleaned up, but it's not an atrocity imo. 

Fish reaction that caused me alert was an absolutely ridiculous ammonia spike followed by a 30-40% water change and Fritz turbo. Then routine maintenance to follow +fritz bacteria. Weeks ago. 

This morning I got a .50ppm showing, puzzles. 

I've checked for dead creatures, none that I've seen but there's quite a few hiding places. 

 

I may have forgotten some stuff, ask away. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/20/2023 at 8:07 PM, AG9 said:

Filter media: factory coarse sponges, 1 level of additional coarse sponge, one level of polishing pads 100&50 micron, 2 levels of biomedia.

Hm....

So there's 2-3 things that play a major factor here.  KH/PH, and your filtration setup.  Certain bacteria just doesn't like certain water conditions.  I would start by going ahead and modifying your filtration.  With a prefilter on the intake, you're looking at ~4-5 layers or foam filtration, which should be more than adequate without that second basket of foam.

1.  Prefilter
2.  Internal foam filter (blue foam)
3.  Internal foam filter (white foam)
4.  Internal foam (bottom basket)
~5. Fine pad / polyfil

That should be enough mechanical filtration without any issues.  Then you can go ahead and add another basket of biological media.  Depending on what media you have, that's another factor, but generally speaking you'd want the bottom tray with foam, the other 3 with media, and anything chemical based on the top tray with ~1/2 of that top tray at least with your biological media.

On 9/20/2023 at 8:07 PM, AG9 said:

Fish: (it's a heavily stocked tank, but I haven't had any issues with anything until adding angel fish which I have since removed and some) 4 dwarf guoriamis (6 months), 2 Siamese algae eaters (3.5"), 9 bleeding heart tetra's (years), 9 glofish (years), 4 mystery snails (2 months but have always snails), 12 neon tetra's (years), 7 amano (years), 2 bristlenose (1+ year), 4 African dwarf frogs (2 for years, 2 are a few months), 6 albino Cory (years), 6 kuhli loaches (years), 2 vampire shrine (new, not sure if they're staying), 2-3 oto's (year or so), 1 hillstream loach (6 months or so).

I imagine there's just a lot of waste.  Might even be worth adding a second canister.  You mentioned having a secondary pump on the filter as well, which you could replace with something (canister or otherwise) to boost up the biological side of things.

The big thing that stands out as far as waste is the snails, frogs, loaches.  Everything else is pretty low I would think.

[AG9]

On 9/20/2023 at 8:56 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Hm....

So there's 2-3 things that play a major factor here.  KH/PH, and your filtration setup.  Certain bacteria just doesn't like certain water conditions.  I would start by going ahead and modifying your filtration.  With a prefilter on the intake, you're looking at ~4-5 layers or foam filtration, which should be more than adequate without that second basket of foam.

1.  Prefilter
2.  Internal foam filter (blue foam)
3.  Internal foam filter (white foam)
4.  Internal foam (bottom basket)
~5. Fine pad / polyfil

That should be enough mechanical filtration without any issues.  Then you can go ahead and add another basket of biological media.  Depending on what media you have, that's another factor, but generally speaking you'd want the bottom tray with foam, the other 3 with media, and anything chemical based on the top tray with ~1/2 of that top tray at least with your biological media.

In both my AC110's I had the coarse foam, 100 micron, 50 micron, and a large amount of biological media in each. I only mention this because I didn't have a cycle problem with them. And I've run the 407 for about 6 months with no problems at all until the last month or so. 

The original situation that happened that I thought caused the bomb was adding the water from my angel fish when I added them in. But I wasn't sure if low buffering capacity could bomb a tank. 

While I know next to nothing about water chemistry apart from reading the test results and then implementing a water change+conditioner. I was curious to know if my buffering capacity or lack of could be a cripple. 

I've been nervous to add too much crushed coral to elevate kh because I didn't want to stress/kill anything by going to heavy. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/20/2023 at 9:11 PM, AG9 said:

And I've run the 407 for about 6 months with no problems at all until the last month or so. 

Any idea about temperature or other factors wrecking havoc on plant growth and causing that to slow down?  Maybe that accounts for more ammonia and stress?  Are you running an airstone in the tank at all by chance?

 

On 9/20/2023 at 9:11 PM, AG9 said:

While I know next to nothing about water chemistry apart from reading the test results and then implementing a water change+conditioner. I was curious to know if my buffering capacity or lack of could be a cripple. 

I've been nervous to add too much crushed coral to elevate kh because I didn't want to stress/kill anything by going to heavy. 

Yeah, you don't really want to mess with KH until you have a full breakdown of what is going on. 

Test the tank, test the tap for KH.

Take a sample of water from the tap and aerate it for 24 hours, then test it for PH.  Compare that to your PH test on the tank.  If your PH is really low, that could be the factor there. (low like 6 or below)
 

On 9/20/2023 at 8:07 PM, AG9 said:

Fritz turbo.

Which one?

Ideal parameters for FritzZyme® TurboStart 700 nitrifying bacteria:
Temperature: 77-86 F (25-30 C)
pH: 7.3-8.0; nitrification is completely inhibited below pH 6.0
Salinity: 0 - 6 ppt (1.000 to 1.0045 sg); active up to 15 ppt (1.011 sg) 
Alkalinity (KH): minimum 4.5 dKH or 80.5 ppm KH
Phosphate: above 0 ppm

[AG9]

On 9/20/2023 at 8:56 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Hm....

So there's 2-3 things that play a major factor here.  KH/PH, and your filtration setup.  Certain bacteria just doesn't like certain water conditions.  I would start by going ahead and modifying your filtration.  With a prefilter on the intake, you're looking at ~4-5 layers or foam filtration, which should be more than adequate without that second basket of foam.

1.  Prefilter
2.  Internal foam filter (blue foam)
3.  Internal foam filter (white foam)
4.  Internal foam (bottom basket)
~5. Fine pad / polyfil

That should be enough mechanical filtration without any issues.  Then you can go ahead and add another basket of biological media.  Depending on what media you have, that's another factor, but generally speaking you'd want the bottom tray with foam, the other 3 with media, and anything chemical based on the top tray with ~1/2 of that top tray at least with your biological media.

I imagine there's just a lot of waste.  Might even be worth adding a second canister.  You mentioned having a secondary pump on the filter as well, which you could replace with something (canister or otherwise) to boost up the biological side of things.

The big thing that stands out as far as waste is the snails, frogs, loaches.  Everything else is pretty low I would think.

And while I was concerned about waste, wouldn't it translate to a high nitrate load first? Because, if so, my nitrates rarely if ever exceed 40-45ppm. 

I'm gifted with tap water that has a 7.0 ph. I know my kh is low. I've tested it. It's like 0 or 1. 

And yes, Fritz Turbo 700 and occasionally I use the less concentrated Fritz bacteria after I swap out a polish pad or such. I have used it routinely when transferring my tanks, starting new tanks, etc. All with classic Fritz turbo results. Not routinely every week or every month, but any time I compromise a cycle. 

[Galabar]

Have you measured KH?

 

[AG9]

I will add, I have a bad habit of adding fish in groups. 

So when I add two angel fish and the water, I add 2 mystery snails and that water. My personal curiosity from the start wasn't ever about waste load ONLY because: the day or two after I add a fish or do a water change (usually around the same day), it reads 10-20ppm. But on like 2 occasions when I added two bags of "fish" I'll get an ammonia spike. I test everything when it happens, GH is lke 6-8 if I remember correctly, nitrite is 0, ammonia .5 or the major instance way worse, ph 7.2, nitrate 20ppm. 

And I always think "it's too soon for the load to stress the tank, my plants absorb a lot. What's wrong with the water, It can't seem to handle a drop of outside water I haven't conditioned personally". 

On 9/20/2023 at 9:58 PM, Galabar said:

Have you measured KH?

 

KH is atrocious, like 0 or 1. GH is good. 

[Galabar]

So, you need some amount of KH in order to nitrifying bacteria to do their thing.

https://makc.com/blog/f/what-do-you-know-about-kh#:~:text=KH is the “usable” part,nitrites and then to nitrates.

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/4-5-2-1-kh-and-cycling/

https://barrreport.com/threads/nitrification-in-low-kh-low-ph-environment.1870/

https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/water_pdf/module2.pdf

Quote

Nitrification consumes alkalinity and lowers pH in the activated sludge mixed liquor. pH below 6.5 or above 8.0 can significantly inhibit nitrification. Rules of Thumb: Maintain pH in the range 6.5 - 8.0 for optimum nitrification.

https://www.cwea.org/news/how-alkalinity-affects-nitrification/

Quote

To nitrify, alkalinity levels should be at least eight times the concentration of ammonia in wastewater. This value may be higher for untreated wastewater with higher-than-usual influent ammonia concentrations. The theoretical reaction shows that approximately 7.14 mg of alkalinity (as CaCO3) is consumed for every milligram of ammonia oxidized. A rule of thumb is an 8-to-1 ratio of alkalinity to ammonia. Inadequate alkalinity could result in incomplete nitrification and depressed pH values in the facility. 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Galabar

[AG9]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:04 PM, Galabar said:

So, you need some amount of KH in order to nitrifying bacteria to do their thing.

https://makc.com/blog/f/what-do-you-know-about-kh#:~:text=KH is the “usable” part,nitrites and then to nitrates.

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/4-5-2-1-kh-and-cycling/

https://barrreport.com/threads/nitrification-in-low-kh-low-ph-environment.1870/

https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/water_pdf/module2.pdf

https://www.cwea.org/news/how-alkalinity-affects-nitrification/

Read that article, I have crushed coral. I haven't been able to find out if raising kh continuously raises Ph. I know it does at first.

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:02 PM, AG9 said:

KH is atrocious, like 0 or 1. GH is good. 

There's a different version of fritz bacteria that will work better in your PH.  Anything with low KH, the turbostart 700 stuff (live bacteria) allegedly won't work.

[Galabar]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:13 PM, AG9 said:

Read that article, I have crushed coral. I haven't been able to find out if raising kh continuously raises Ph. I know it does at first.

You mentioned a KH of 0 or 1.  This is with crushed coral in the tank?

I guess crushed coral won't dissolve until pH is below 7?  So, could it be that you have low KH even with crushed coral?  In that case, you can try something like Instance Ocean Sea Buffer or Seachem Alkaline buffer.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Galabar

[AG9]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:14 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

There's a different version of fritz bacteria that will work better in your PH.  Anything with low KH, the turbostart 700 stuff (live bacteria) allegedly won't work.

But my ph routinely measures at 7

On 9/20/2023 at 10:16 PM, Galabar said:

You mentioned a KH of 0 or 1.  This is with crushed coral in the tank?

Minor amounts in relation to volume. 1 was with maybe 1 cup in the filter. 

[Galabar]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:16 PM, AG9 said:

But my ph routinely measures at 7

Minor amounts in relation to volume. 1 was with maybe 1 cup in the filter. 

It's the KH that the nitrifying bacteria need.  You can have a pH of 7, but still have low KH.

The bicarbonate is needed in the conversion of ammonia to (eventually) nitrate:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/nitrifying-bacteria

No KH, no nitrification, and no conversion of ammonia to nitrate.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Galabar

[AG9]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:18 PM, Galabar said:

It's the KH that the nitrifying bacteria need.  You can have a pH of 7, but still have low KH.

And I know nitrifying bacteria devours kh. So then I guess adding it to a system without any kh would just be wasting product. I'll have to toss some coral back in the filter. 

Doesn't solve the original reason for the ammonia spike, however. Does it?

On 9/20/2023 at 10:16 PM, Galabar said:

You mentioned a KH of 0 or 1.  This is with crushed coral in the tank?

I guess crushed coral won't dissolve until pH is below 7?  So, could it be that you have low KH even with crushed coral?  In that case, you can try something like Instance Ocean Sea Buffer or Seachem Alkaline buffer.

And while this is fine, is it a permanent solution to increasing my kh? Or is that something I'm just going to have to add because my tap water has none?

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:21 PM, AG9 said:

And while this is fine, is it a permanent solution to increasing my kh? Or is that something I'm just going to have to add because my tap water has none?

Run tests on the tap for KH and the off-gas test mentioned above.  Report back, we can go from there. 

We need to understand if this is a tank issue a tap issue, or a mix of things.

[AG9]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:31 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Run tests on the tap for KH and the off-gas test mentioned above.  Report back, we can go from there. 

We need to understand if this is a tank issue a tap issue, or a mix of things.

Sounds good, be in touch. 

[AG9]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:31 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Run tests on the tap for KH and the off-gas test mentioned above.  Report back, we can go from there. 

We need to understand if this is a tank issue a tap issue, or a mix of things.

Haven't gotten to the 24hr test. But my parameters are below. Haven't tested tap for ammonia. I will. I'll also mention on my ammonia and nitrate solutions I'm getting to the end of the bottles as I test regularly. Don't know if that will mix my results. 

I also want to voice my method of water change for my 75g is a direct to tap siphon. I always add conditioner to the exact opening where the hose is in the tank, but I don't use buckets anymore and haven't for quite a while. Probably at least a year on the big tank. Could it really be that my nitrate testing isn't completely accurate due to regent separation and I'm actually overrunning my filter and my water changes are sabotaging bacteria growth? Or should the 407 with the plants be handling that? Not sure why my tank ph is 7.6. My tap water ph has increased since the last time I tested it. It used to firmly be 7.2. Now it's probably a 7.4-7.5.

Tank kh: 2

Tap kh: 3

Tap ph: 7.2-7.6

Tank ph: 7.6

 

P.s- my fish don't display interspecies hostility, they all eat like champions and I haven't had any deaths to any fish that isn't new or a snail that didn't get stuck in my intake. Think it's possible to overfeed that many fish every other day? 

[AG9]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:40 PM, AG9 said:

Sounds good, be in touch. 

Also, before I forget. The spike happened at the exact same time I turned off my under substrate air stones. Spray bar was doing a good job with surface disturbance so I turned it off. Have since turned it back on. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/21/2023 at 8:01 PM, AG9 said:

Tank kh: 2

Tap kh: 3

So a little bit of CC in the tank helps get you from 3 --> 4, which should be more stable.  To get the tank up, it's just a sign of not enough Water changes.

 

On 9/21/2023 at 8:01 PM, AG9 said:

Tap ph: 7.2-7.6

Tank ph: 7.6

I expect it to drop a little.  Sometimes you won't see that until you get a little bit of ammonia in the system and then it drops pretty quickly.  Probably 6.8-7.2 range is where you'll see it land after 24 hours.

 

On 9/21/2023 at 8:01 PM, AG9 said:

I also want to voice my method of water change for my 75g is a direct to tap siphon. I always add conditioner to the exact opening where the hose is in the tank, but I don't use buckets anymore and haven't for quite a while. Probably at least a year on the big tank. Could it really be that my nitrate testing isn't completely accurate due to regent separation and I'm actually overrunning my filter and my water changes are sabotaging bacteria growth? Or should the 407 with the plants be handling that? Not sure why my tank ph is 7.6. My tap water ph has increased since the last time I tested it. It used to firmly be 7.2. Now it's probably a 7.4-7.5.

A lot of people use a python or similar device for water changes, especially on bigger size tanks like that.  the conditioner isn't going to foul anything or cause issues like that. 

It could be as simple as the KH and the bacteria you're using, bioload, etc.,  It might be a maintenance thing (frequency or amount of water change to remove nitrates) which is causing issues because the plants don't have what they need.  That happens for an extended period and you go from the plants helping, to being severely struggling to stay alive.  It's a tough situation because one side will argue that you have nitrates, so you have what you need.  But if everything in the tank is nitrates.... then you have to consider how much nitrates and if you're getting any ferts in the tank for the plants to use.  In a perfect world, you add in your nitrates from your fertilizer, through the week that is used up and then when it's water change time the tank has low nitrates and you add in more ferts.  This is one way to ensure the plants have what they need from a fert perspective.  Tabs is another method.... or an additional one.

Based on your GH and KH, those seem to be in good spots.  Based on everything else, it seems to be a really big question of what the plants need and what they aren't getting.  Finally, the big question is about the ammonia vs. filtration and the amount of nitrates you're seeing week to week.

 

On 9/21/2023 at 8:01 PM, AG9 said:

hink it's possible to overfeed that many fish every other day? 

Tough to say.  We can try to track things then go through and determine what's going on with the levels on a week to week basis.

Essentially, we want to test a few times and record those for comparing a trend on what the load in the tank is doing.

Record the date of each of the following:
1.  Test nitrate before you add ferts.
2.  Test 24 hours after you add ferts.
3.  Test before you do a water change.  Note how much water you changed)
4.  Test 24 hours after the water change. Assuming that you are going to be adding ferts after WC, but potentially not.  If you don't that's better for this test.
----> Essentially, water change out the tank, in the morning following, run a test, get your value for "after cleaning" and then you add in your ferts and track if your nitrates skyrocket or not by the end of the week.

[AG9]

On 9/21/2023 at 10:19 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

So a little bit of CC in the tank helps get you from 3 --> 4, which should be more stable.  To get the tank up, it's just a sign of not enough Water changes.

 

I expect it to drop a little.  Sometimes you won't see that until you get a little bit of ammonia in the system and then it drops pretty quickly.  Probably 6.8-7.2 range is where you'll see it land after 24 hours.

 

A lot of people use a python or similar device for water changes, especially on bigger size tanks like that.  the conditioner isn't going to foul anything or cause issues like that. 

It could be as simple as the KH and the bacteria you're using, bioload, etc.,  It might be a maintenance thing (frequency or amount of water change to remove nitrates) which is causing issues because the plants don't have what they need.  That happens for an extended period and you go from the plants helping, to being severely struggling to stay alive.  It's a tough situation because one side will argue that you have nitrates, so you have what you need.  But if everything in the tank is nitrates.... then you have to consider how much nitrates and if you're getting any ferts in the tank for the plants to use.  In a perfect world, you add in your nitrates from your fertilizer, through the week that is used up and then when it's water change time the tank has low nitrates and you add in more ferts.  This is one way to ensure the plants have what they need from a fert perspective.  Tabs is another method.... or an additional one.

Based on your GH and KH, those seem to be in good spots.  Based on everything else, it seems to be a really big question of what the plants need and what they aren't getting.  Finally, the big question is about the ammonia vs. filtration and the amount of nitrates you're seeing week to week.

 

Tough to say.  We can try to track things then go through and determine what's going on with the levels on a week to week basis.

Essentially, we want to test a few times and record those for comparing a trend on what the load in the tank is doing.

Record the date of each of the following:
1.  Test nitrate before you add ferts.
2.  Test 24 hours after you add ferts.
3.  Test before you do a water change.  Note how much water you changed)
4.  Test 24 hours after the water change. Assuming that you are going to be adding ferts after WC, but potentially not.  If you don't that's better for this test.
----> Essentially, water change out the tank, in the morning following, run a test, get your value for "after cleaning" and then you add in your ferts and track if your nitrates skyrocket or not by the end of the week.

Just because I have one answer to this. Since I change water based on nitrate levels and my nitrates don't commonly read high (tested tonight and they were at 30ppm), I do a 20-30% water change every 2 weeks. I've tested water parameters immediately afterwards and nitrates tested at about 5-10ppm, ph about 7.2-7.4, and kh about 2-3.

I add 7ml of fert every Sunday/Monday regardless (easy Green pump 1ml per pump, 7 pumps). I tried 8 pumps and got green hair algae. 7 pumps no algae. Research told me that was high iron. Now most research says algae is a lack of nutrition. Have never water tested for ppm following. With a 75g tank I have had issues with full growth on the whole 24" of plant. Gorgeous lush growth on on top, fast. The bottom withers. My smaller tanks, same protocol per volume and their growth looks WAY more consistent. 

The ONLY difference on my smaller tank is substrate and height and I've heard that height is a big deal with par value. Substrate is carib sea eco black. 

One last thing, I'll also admit I never had any problems aside from algae with weekly water changes.

On 9/20/2023 at 10:40 PM, AG9 said:

Sounds good, be in touch. 

Also, before I forget. The spike happened at the exact same time I turned off my under substrate air stones. Spray bar was doing a good job with surface disturbance so I turned it off. Have since turned it back on. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/21/2023 at 10:38 PM, AG9 said:

Research told me that was high iron. Now most research says algae is a lack of nutrition.

I have a sheet, I'll see what the notes are on there for this particular algae. I think amanos do well to eat it though.

On 9/21/2023 at 10:38 PM, AG9 said:

With a 75g tank I have had issues with full growth on the whole 24" of plant. Gorgeous lush growth on on top, fast. The bottom withers. My smaller tanks, same protocol per volume and their growth looks WAY more consistent. 

Agreed. It can be so difficult to get a 75G to light properly. In my own tank I ran into issues where the light wasn't giving me the best refraction angle for some plants in certain spots. Because of that I actually ended up getting a mounting kit and raising the light. I turned up the intensity, but it helped to ease the refraction angles and give me a little better access to the light for some of the shallow height plants.

It's all still a huge work in progress, but it's one where I would recommend looking into running two lights or running risers in some cases.

From my own experience, I tend to get the green types of algae when there's too much light/fert and not enough plant growth or plant mass to use that energy. Something like... placement can be a big factor here. If I have my big anubias right under the light, then it's very likely to get green algae on the leaves.

 

Let's track it, see what the numbers say, and go from there.