Did I mess of transferring my fish from tank to tank? Are they dying?

[Karen B.]

Greetings 

I wanted to move my pair of apistogramma cacatuoides from a 20 high tank to a 20 long.

 

New substrate (Carib Sea Peace River gravel that I rinced)/driftwood and plants (with root tabs). 
After planting/filling with water, there was few clumps of little bubbles floating around so I ran activated carbon for about 12 hours. I also dosed Prime and Stability. Bubbles were still there. But only a few, no big clump/soap like.
 

The next day I removed some of the water, filled with water my apistogramma were in (aquarium established for about 6 months). Brought their filter to the new aquarium (I squeezed and cleaned the media inside the new tank) clouding the water with yuckiness. Waited for it to clear, added a cup of fritzyme 7, waited an hour, added their sponge filter to the tank.

Waited for temperature to somewhat match (I found out one of my thermometer was completely off. I tought I was keeping them at 79, in truth they were at 84. I transfered the fish when the aquariums were about 1 degree of difference (81 to 80). During the night, temp dropped to 77.5. I am aiming for 79.

Parameters from one tank to the other are about the same. 0/0/0, new tank had slightly softer water (used to be more around 40, now closer to 80), hard water about 150, pH is a bit higher (from 6.6 to 7ish)

I transfered them without acclimating. My male hid, my female swam around, ate a bit. During the night, I saw them both swim/chase each other.
This morning, my male was in his cave, my female was plunged head first behind her cave. Took me a few nudges to get her moving - I tought she was dead.
She doesn’t look too well. Stay on gravel, doesn’t move much, rapid breathing, stay close to things so she can hide.. she used to be on sand…Could she have choked on a small gravel piece?

The male is sometimes coming out of the cave and come close to the female. Usually he chases her but right now they just stay close. His mouth is slightly opened.

I dropped bloodworm but none of them ate anything.

I added another cup of fritzyme and Prime, just in case.

Was the tank not seeded enough/did I transfer them too quickly?
Anything else I should do or will they die?? I have another established tank (1+ year), should I move them there for now?

Gosh I am worried.

https://youtube.com/shorts/pEaLulb6riA?feature=share

 

https://youtu.be/YH8JLqQiNf4

 

https://youtu.be/IH5Qh7J-SG8

 

https://youtu.be/VgFfR7OtG3w

[tolstoy21]

On 11/22/2022 at 5:32 PM, Karen B. said:

Could she have choked on a small gravel piece?

I've kept apistos on this gravel and they did fine.

I would say something is off in your water parameters, or they are just stressed from the move and need a little time to recuperate.

Water doesn't get seeded. The beneficial bacteria exists on surfaces, gravel, hardscape, in filters/media/sponges/etc. For that to affect the fish, the fish would have to create waste first for that waste to turn to enough ammonia to affect their health.

On 11/22/2022 at 5:32 PM, Karen B. said:

used to be more around 40, now closer to 80

What is this a measure of ? Kh?

On 11/22/2022 at 5:32 PM, Karen B. said:

pH is a bit higher (from 6.6 to 7ish)

This could be a possibility.

You could move them, but if stress is what's causing their issues, that will just exacerbate things,

Edited November 23, 2022 by tolstoy21

[Karen B.]

On 11/22/2022 at 7:23 PM, tolstoy21 said:

I've kept apistos on this gravel and they did fine.

I would say something is off in your water parameters, or they are just stressed from the move and need a little time to recuperate.

Water doesn't get seeded. The beneficial bacteria exists on surfaces, gravel, hardscape, in filters/media/sponges/etc. For that to affect the fish, the fish would have to create waste first for that waste to turn to enough ammonia to affect their health.

What is this a measure of ? Kh?

This could be a possibility.

You could move them, but if stress is what's causing their issues, that will just exacerbate things,

Yes, it was the measure of kH. 
 

They are still alive so far. I added catappa leaves, some more media from another aquarium. I don’t know what else to do. But I supposed if they are in shock, there isn’t much I can do besides wait and see. I am so upset as I planned this transfer, asked if my method of seeding the aquarium was good, yet I did not think acclimating would be required as it’s from the same water source so to speak. My poor babies are suffering because of my stupidity. 

[Schuyler]

On 11/22/2022 at 6:40 PM, Karen B. said:

Yes, it was the measure of kH. 
 

They are still alive so far. I added catappa leaves, some more media from another aquarium. I don’t know what else to do. But I supposed if they are in shock, there isn’t much I can do besides wait and see. I am so upset as I planned this transfer, asked if my method of seeding the aquarium was good, yet I did not think acclimating would be required as it’s from the same water source so to speak. My poor babies are suffering because of my stupidity. 

Yeah that's rough. Whatever you end up doing now make sure it's gradual so that they can acclimate rather than having parameters changing constantly.

[tolstoy21]

I can think of two scenarios that could impact your fish --

1. There is something to the water quality that they are reacting to -- different Ph perhaps, but they should have acclimated to that by now -- or something else you didn't measure for.
2. Stress -- Perhaps they are just stressed because they aren't familiar with the new environment. I have moved fish and seen them go into hiding for a while because they were not yet comfortable in the new space.  I think they have to check it out and start to feel like they are not in jeopardy of being eaten, etc.

I don't think it has any anything to your tank being cycled or 'seeding'. If you move over established media, you should be fine. In general seeding a tank with bacteria gets it prepped to handle the bioload. But, let's say you didn't do that, it would take a few days for the bioload to accumulate to a point where it would start impacting your fish's health. This is not something that they would react to the moment they are introduced (unless of course there was a build up of ammonia in the aquarium from decaying matter, if the aquarium was running for a while and had not yet fully cycled).  But this would be measurable in the water.

I move fish around quite a bit, from old seeded tank to another old seeded tank, from old tank to new tank, etc. I move seeded filters with them when needed and provide ample hiding places to ease their transition. I make sure the water is similar in terms of parameters, etc.  The only think I have observed from this that is detrimental is the stress of the move.

Now, I will admit that I have moved some fish and almost killed (and, alas, have killed). But this was due drastically differing params. 

I once instantly killed a bag of plecos once because I made the mistake or assuming they were raised on soft water (I found out they were bred in something close to a Ph of 8.0) and plopped them into a tank running 6.4. Four of the six died instantly. The other two had to be nursed back to health.  But the Ph of your water isn't that drastically different, and if the fish are still alive, they would have acclimated by now. And they aren't in a Ph that is not native to their biology and they cannot adapt to. 

So unless you suspect there is something in your water they are reacting to, I would focus on trying to avoid introducing any more stress (not saying you aren't already doing that), but I would think stability and some seclusion might benefit them if they appear in distress.

In the meantime, continue to run some tests for things like Ph, ammonia, nitrite, etc.  If your water is from the same source, it should be fundamentally the same unless you are on city water and your municipality did something to change it. But that should be testable. And to be safe, you could probably run carbon in your filter for a short while if you have an HOB where you can place.

Anyway, those are just some thoughts.

Keep us posted

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

Also, looking at your videos, they don't appear to me to be unhealthy. They appear to be hiding. 

The breathing of the male in the last video appears normal, and it also appears alert. Fins extended. Pectoral fins moving at a normal pace.

Given they are huddled in the corned near a cave, I would suggest they are just a bit nervous about their new environment. 

Sometimes when I move an apisto to a new aquarium by itself, it will do the same thing and just sit in the corner behind a sponge filter for days (sometimes they stay there as they feel safe under the shelter of it). I too get nervous and think 'God, is he (or she) Ok back there? Did I just kill them?' The answer to this is always 'No'. They are just scared and feel safe hunkered in somewhere that feels safe for the time being.

Here's to hoping I'm correct and that your fish are actually in good health and continue to bring you joy!

Edited November 23, 2022 by tolstoy21

[Karen B.]

On 11/22/2022 at 10:14 PM, Schuyler said:

Yeah that's rough. Whatever you end up doing now make sure it's gradual so that they can acclimate rather than having parameters changing constantly.

Sure will. Lesson learned!!!

On 11/23/2022 at 7:56 AM, tolstoy21 said:

Also, looking at your videos, they don't appear to me to be unhealthy. They appear to be hiding. 

The breathing of the male in the last video appears normal, and it also appears alert. Fins extended. Pectoral fins moving at a normal pace.

Given they are huddled in the corned near a cave, I would suggest they are just a bit nervous about their new environment. 

Sometimes when I move an apisto to a new aquarium by itself, it will do the same thing and just sit in the corner behind a sponge filter for days (sometimes they stay there as they feel safe under the shelter of it). I too get nervous and think 'God, is he (or she) Ok back there? Did I just kill them?' The answer to this is always 'No'. They are just scared and feel safe hunkered in somewhere that feels safe for the time being.

Here's to hoping I'm correct and that your fish are actually in good health and continue to bring you joy!

Thank you so much. I feel a bit reassured. I did watch old videos of my male and his breathing is a lot quicker than usual but the rest - colors, fins, etc… are the same.

I haven’t seen my female in the torpedo position again. She swam around a bit. Both still won’t eat but today I will leave them alone with feeding to avoid ammonia or stress. Will leave the light closed as well.

I am sorry you too have accidentally harmed fish. I get so upset at myself when I make mistakes that impact the health of my fish.

[tolstoy21]

On 11/23/2022 at 10:25 AM, Karen B. said:

I haven’t seen my female in the torpedo position again. She swam around a bit. Both still won’t eat but today I will leave them alone with feeding to avoid ammonia or stress. Will leave the light closed as well.

What's the torpedo position look like?

As for eating, I find a lot of the time, especially if they are alone in an aquarium with no real competition for food, they will eat when they are ready, according to their schedule, not necessarily when food is dropped in unless its something alive and wiggling that suddenly attracts their attention. 

This is especially true if they are timid. They will wait till the coast is clear and kind of hunt and peck the substrate for morsels of food.  

My personal feeling (just a guess really, without actually having really observed them in nature) is that this is their mode of feeding, scavenging bugs and bits of stuff from the bottom while only darting out if they see something wiggly in the water column. 

They certainly don't feed like other fish species -- like Odessas Barbs for instance, which form a crazy, ravenous school of frenzied feeding, churning up the water's surface, the moment food hits the tank. Or my Oscars, which perk up and wait near the surface the moment I walk into the room (they beg for food worse than my dog!).

Edited November 23, 2022 by tolstoy21

[Schuyler]

On 11/23/2022 at 7:25 AM, Karen B. said:

Sure will. Lesson learned!!!

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure this is a lesson we all have to learn the hard way. My first tank I had a fish die which made me panic and do a big water change to tank out the aquarium salt I had just added. That stressed the rest of them out which caused a cascading effect and all four four of our guppies to die. Luckily two of the female had babies just before dieing and those managed to survive to have babies of their own.

[Karen B.]

On 11/23/2022 at 10:41 AM, Schuyler said:

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure this is a lesson we all have to learn the hard way. My first tank I had a fish die which made me panic and do a big water change to tank out the aquarium salt I had just added. That stressed the rest of them out which caused a cascading effect and all four four of our guppies to die. Luckily two of the female had babies just before dieing and those managed to survive to have babies of their own.

So sorry for your loss! This is such a terrible thing to experiment - knowing you are the cause of your fish’ passing. We love and care for them so much.

[Karen B.]

On 11/23/2022 at 10:40 AM, tolstoy21 said:

What's the torpedo position look like?

As for eating, I find a lot of the time, especially if they are alone in an aquarium with no real competition for food, they will eat when they are ready, according to their schedule, not necessarily when food is dropped in unless its something alive and wiggling that suddenly attracts their attention. 

This is especially true if they are timid. They will wait till the coast is clear and kind of hunt and peck the substrate for morsels of food.  

My personal feeling (just a guess really, without actually having really observed them in nature) is that this is their mode of feeding, scavenging bugs and bits of stuff from the bottom while only darting out if they see something wiggly in the water column. 

They certainly don't feed like other fish species -- like Odessas Barbs for instance, which form a crazy, ravenous school of frenzied feeding, churning up the water's surface, the moment food hits the tank. Or my Oscars, which perk up and wait near the surface the moment I walk into the room (they beg for food worse than my dog!).

Concerning food, Chanel and Dior do a mix of both behavior. I feed them small cube of frozen food with tweezers - even if food is sinking, they swim right up to me and will feed from my tweezer as long as I am there. When the cube is completely melted/I leave, then they go on their business picking/finding the food that is left! I once tried with a pipette to send food down directly to where they were but both ignored it, swam up and were waiting on me. 
 

Here is a video of Chanel in her torpedo position. Head down, in a corner. She only does it in corners. Otherwise she swims horizontally.

 

Sorry for the bad quality - whenever I open the light even on the tank next to hers, she swims away. Her breathing was normal all night through but this morning she is back to breathing very fast. I am so confused. 

[tolstoy21]

I think you just need to give them time to adjust to their new aquarium. 

[Schuyler]

Did they make it?

[Karen B.]

On 11/26/2022 at 9:05 PM, Schuyler said:

Did they make it?

Greetings!

I was away from home for 2 days. Came back today, left some food. Eventually I saw the female come out of hiding and eat! I was so happy. Now the lights are off and both of them are swimming around. So it really was just stress. Gosh they scared me! I am a little sad as they no longer come see me or interact with me but maybe with time they will do it again.

After Christmas I will get some ditter fish now that I have a 20 long. It should help them feel more secure as well!

Thanks for your help and your concerns!