Ziss Egg Tumbler help!

[nabokovfan87]

Hey everyone,

I got a spawn of black corydoras eggs and this time I have the tumbler and it's setup and running.  Hopefully correctly!

I wanted to ask a few questions and I am hoping that someone who has experience with hatching eggs and breeding can help me out.

1.  I have methylene blue on hand.  Should I add some to the tank if I am using the tumbler?  I have heard issues of it's use and some genetic things, but I have used ich-x before in this tank.  I also heard Dean say he adds the drops to his eggs in a specimen container w/ airstone and then as soon as they hatch he removes the chemical.  Can someone explain all this to me and what's going on? Is there a risk?

2.  I have a video of where I have the eggs setup and trying to show the vibration/movement.  If I turn it too high, my understanding is that it will damage the eggs.  I have it set gently, but these eggs are super sticky!  Should I try to get the eggs to stick to the sides or knock them off the sides? Should I try to get them to lay flat (one layer) or just let them do what they are going to do?
 

3.  What do I do if I find a non-viable egg in a day or two? How do you handle issues with eggs and using a tumbler?

4.  I have heard or read that once the yolk sack is gone, then you'd release them.  Is this correct or anything further I should know?

I very much appreciate anyone's help.  I am out of my depth here. I have raised fish, but never this way and intently trying to get a high hatch success rate.

Edited November 10, 2022 by nabokovfan87
added fish details, whoops!

[AllFishNoBrakes]

Hey @nabokovfan87  I’ve used the tumbler for both Cory’s and Angel’s. I’m not expert with the thing, but I did get a spawn of like 35 Cory’s on my last attempt. 
 

1. I didn’t use meth blue in the main tank. I just set up the tumbler in the tank the eggs were laid in. 
 

2. My air was gently. I simply tried to stick the eggs down in the tumbler as far as I could. 
 

3. If any eggs fungus, I’d pull them out. Stop the air, remove the tumbler from the tank, and use a pipette or turkey baster to remove the eggs. 
 

4. Once mine were free swimming I moved them to some breeder boxes in a bigger tank. Free swimming and yolk sac consumed they’re ready to eat, so release them to wherever you plan to raise them. Hope this helps!

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/10/2022 at 2:22 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

3. If any eggs fungus, I’d pull them out. Stop the air, remove the tumbler from the tank, and use a pipette or turkey baster to remove the eggs. 

Do you do this once a day to try to minimize issues?  One thing I'm struggling with (my own fault and I'm working through it) it just getting the lid off without backflushing eggs when the water drops from the tube back into the container.  I've started to let out some of the water, remove the cap, then do whatever need be.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

@nabokovfan87 Ya, I work crazy long hours so every night when I’d come home from work I’d take a look at the tumbler and see if I felt like I needed to take anything out. If it was my day off I’d just check throughout the day. 
 

And ya, it’s a little goofy, but doing it once per day you get a good feel for it, lol

[TOtrees]

When you remove the tumbler from the tank, start by pulling the just the pipe off the top. Then, with the filter and sponge part still attached tip it sideways to pour some water off through the mesh screen opening. Then, when you remove the top part that has the sponge you won’t get so much backflow that it makes it overflow. If you have problems, do that whole part over a tray or plate or bowl or something. 

I use hydrogen peroxide daily when I am hatching cory eggs in exactly the same tumbler. Once the top has been removed, I pour all the water off into a cup and add new/clean tank water back almost to the top of the hatcher. For the size of hatcher I have (not sure if it’s the same as yours) I add 2mL of 3% peroxide and let it sit outside the tank with no air for 15 minutes. Then, without disturbing the eggs too much, I pour all of that water back into the tank and again refill it with clean water from the tank. Then he top goes back on and back into the tank it goes.

Every time I do this, I also use a bottle brush to clean the inside of the hatcher, squeeze out the sponge on the top of the hatcher under running water, and blow hard thru the mesh screen part, to keep the water flowing properly.

You will need a fry tank (separate, or hang on) to grow the newly hatched babies for at least maybe 2-4 weeks, depending on the species of cory and what other fish you have in the tank i.e. newly hatched babies are very yummy and you need to grow them big enough that they don’t get eaten. If you return the new hatchlings to the tank with the adults you’re going to see pretty high losses, I think.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/10/2022 at 3:23 PM, TOtrees said:

When you remove the tumbler from the tank, start by pulling the just the pipe off the top. Then, with the filter and sponge part still attached tip it sideways to pour some water off through the mesh screen opening. Then, when you remove the top part that has the sponge you won’t get so much backflow that it makes it overflow. If you have problems, do that whole part over a tray or plate or bowl or something. 

It took me a few attempts to get this, but perfectly explained.  It's much more difficult to disassemble with the uplift tube attached to the lid.

[modified lung]

On 11/10/2022 at 2:07 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

1.  I have methylene blue on hand.  Should I add some to the tank if I am using the tumbler?

You may not need to use meth. Fungus is opportunistic and mostly only happens in an overly sterile environment. If you do use meth, do a daily 5 to 10 minute bath instead of having them sit in it until hatch.

On 11/10/2022 at 2:07 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

2.  I have a video of where I have the eggs setup and trying to show the vibration/movement.

 The possibility of damage depends on the species. Idk about Corys specifically. Sticking to the sides is fine. The most important thing besides flow is that the eggs are not in contact with each other which increases the possiblity of fungus spreading from non-viable to viable eggs.

On 11/10/2022 at 2:07 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

  3. What do I do if I find a non-viable egg in a day or two? How do you handle issues with eggs and using a tumbler?

Depends. Better to remove the egg in case it grows fungus and spreads. Here's a pic of some non-viable Medaka eggs I didn't remove that grew fungus. I'm not going to remove it now though because I can see the eggs around it have developed eyes and I think the risk of damaging them in the process is too high. Also eggs that get covered in fungus in the late stage can still hatch.

 

On 11/10/2022 at 2:07 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

4.  I have heard or read that once the yolk sack is gone, then you'd release them.  Is this correct or anything further I should know?

I keep mine in at least a quarter gallon of water at least until the free swimming stage. I put a weeks worth of eggs into each hatching container so sometimes they'll stay in there for a week longer.

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by modified lung

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/10/2022 at 4:00 PM, modified lung said:

Sticking to the sides is fine. The most important thing besides flow is that the eggs are not in contact with each other which increases the possiblity of fungus spreading from non-viable to viable eggs.

Yeah, definitely.  These guys are so sticky it's insane.  It's hard to not get them to clump. 

I think it might be better to have a flat tray if the eggs stick together?  I pulled more eggs and some are on the sides but there's a lot that are on bottom and clumping.  I'll check it tomorrow. I can't really tell viability yet on the eggs and I'm sure some of the ones I damaged or aren't viable. 

I think the big female triggered the younger one to lay eggs and they might not have been viable.  From what I could tell though.... my untrained eye.... I think they all were. 

On the second batch there was a lot that I had dropped or that had dropped into the substrate and I'll leave those where they fell.  Some is stuck in the S. Repens and stuff and we'll see how those ones do.  No giant pleco to eat on them, but the black swordtails might.

I really appreciate everyone's help here.  Thank you as always for that.

@modified lung in terms of a "flatten tool" so the eggs are all a single layer, would you use the back end of a pipette or a chopstick or would you just see how things develop?

[modified lung]

On 11/10/2022 at 5:57 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

would you use the back end of a pipette

I like to cut the back end of a pipette into a spoon and use that to drag things around. The newer the eggs the more elastic and hard to damage they tend to be. When you can see the eyes inside the egg is when I'm more careful.

[nabokovfan87]

Awesome.  Yeah, i saw Cory's tip of cutting the end of a pipette. I haven't done that yet but will when i need to.

Now I just have to not mess it up!

[nabokovfan87]

First 24 hours, this is what they look like.

From what I know, the fully cloudy eggs I need to remove as well as fully translucent eggs (nothing inside the clear shell)

Does the setting look acceptable for the eggs or should I turn it up?

 

[Adam Swarbrick]

The setting looks perfect to me. I’d leave the cloudy eggs in and see how they go. Infertile ones stay white and in my experience the fertile ones start to go more yellow. It can be hard to tell initially.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/11/2022 at 1:22 PM, Adam Swarbrick said:

It can be hard to tell initially.

yeah, that's where I'm at right now.  I want to give it at least a little bit more time and see what it looks like. I wish I could flatten out the clump of eggs there, but it wafts around in the container and it has a filter so there's not a lot I can do.  If something shows fungus I have the hang on breeder box I can move it to and then treat that directly using dean's method.

Even the ones that are clear, I can see internally, but again... so small that it's very difficult.

One of the females, her first time laying which explains a lot of the variation. 

[Adam Swarbrick]

Sounds like you’re well set then. It took a couple of rounds for me to get really good hatches. Last time I got 137 fry from 2 females. I keep them in a Marina air driven breeder box after hatching with a bit of moss and a couple of snails to use up any leftover food. Before adding those I think I’d loose a lot of the batch to ammonia spikes.

 Looking forward to seeing how you do.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/11/2022 at 3:26 PM, Adam Swarbrick said:

It took a couple of rounds for me to get really good hatches.

nooooooooo! LOL.  I can't ever get these fish to spawn regularly, so hopefully not!!!

 

 

On 11/11/2022 at 3:26 PM, Adam Swarbrick said:

Looking forward to seeing how you do.

I am too.  And it's all new and learning.  Last time I got two fry by doing nothing, so let's hope we can do better than that!

[TheSwissAquarist]

How do you collect the eggs @nabokovfan87?

[Adam Swarbrick]

On 11/12/2022 at 12:09 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

nooooooooo! LOL.  I can't ever get these fish to spawn regularly, so hopefully not!!! 

That’s super interesting, I found my black Venezuelans to be really hard to spawn even though I was popping orange ones out every week…

I was pretty much ready to sell them and move on but a club members have a talk about corys and gave me a tip which I think worked for me. He said try either putting them into a spare tank or change up the scape with a big water change and a couple of almond leaves. That would simulate a big rain storm washing branches and leaf litter around their territory.

[nabokovfan87]

I've contemplated a few different ways for sure.... I haven't figured out the puzzle. One day!

@Adam Swarbrick

On 11/11/2022 at 11:52 PM, TheSwissAquarist said:

How do you collect the eggs @nabokovfan87?

It definitely wasn't easy. I tried to roll them on my finger but they were seriously attached to the glass. Some easier than others and kn absolutely certain I damaged a lot of eggs. So I'm probably not the best to ask.  But.  I tried to use Dean's method of rolling my finger. For some it worked. For others I would have to pinch them off so to speak and then I did try using an algae blade but they didn't really work well for this situation. It is something where you need a massive amount of patience and sitting there for 3 hours pulling eggs slowly, hopefully it went slowly compared to trying to do it quickly and doing more harm.  I'm collecting eggs and the fish were spawning around me. It was a crazy day in that tank for sure.

[nabokovfan87]

Update:  @modified lung @Adam Swarbrick @TheSwissAquarist @TOtrees @AllFishNoBrakes

(and everyone else!) 

Sorry for the mass tag, but it's a critical question.

I have fry now.... because they are corydoras I don't see yolks, should I go ahead and try to move/feed them?  Video shortly.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

@nabokovfan87 Assuming all eggs have hatched, I would move them to where you’re going to begin growing them out. Yolk sac should last them a couple of days at least, so I personally wouldn’t start feeding until day 3. I used little breeder boxes in my 55 gallon tank with Java moss and a few snails in there to munch on any food the Cory’s missed. 
 

10 gallon tanks I use for Angel fry are the same. Moss, floating plants, and snails for any over feeding. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by AllFishNoBrakes

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/13/2022 at 7:12 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

@nabokovfan87 Assuming all eggs have hatched, I would move them to where you’re going to begin growing them out. I used little breeder boxes in my 55 gallon tank with Java moss and a few snails in there to munch on any food the Cory’s missed. 

 

Not all the eggs have done anything. I did a WC today (normal maint. day) and that may have triggered some?  Essentially, the tumbler was submerged the entire time, but the temp dropped (71-->66) and the tank is slowly trying to catch back up.

I am assuming because they are this species, they don't have yolk sacks and need food several times a day?  I just don't want to run risk of them getting tossed around or a risk of them getting starved so I know the choice is critical for success!

[AllFishNoBrakes]

@nabokovfan87You could also reduce the flow some, and wait til they’re swimming around a bit. Could potentially wait even a couple days when they’re ready to start eating. 

[nabokovfan87]

Getting the breeder box and stuff setup. I'll keep an eye out here for advice!

 

On 11/13/2022 at 7:17 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

@nabokovfan87You could also reduce the flow some, and wait til they’re swimming around a bit. Could potentially wait even a couple days when they’re ready to start eating. 

Ok.  Typically how long until first meal?

[AllFishNoBrakes]

@nabokovfan87I think I left mine in the tumbler for a day or two, and then moved them to the breeder box. I use the mesh ones, but they still have tiny gaps that fry could potentially sneak out of. Hence the use of moss and floating plants to try to make them feel secure and hopefully not wander. 
 

Yolk sac should last 3-4 days. I think I started feeding my last batch beginning of day 3 in case yolk sacs were consumed and they were ready to eat. What foods do you plan to feed?

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/13/2022 at 7:21 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

What foods do you plan to feed?

I have 3 kinds of repashy and flakes. I'll be using the raw powder.