Another Mystery Snail Mystery

[Cinnebuns]

I have a 20 gallon tank that is currently primarily being used to raise Mystery snails. The snails are only 2 weeks old so still currently in a hang on breeder box attached to the tank. A few days ago I put 3 male mystery snails into this tank to give the girls a break and to hold them until I find them a different home.

Yesterday I noticed 2 of them not moving. I took note but didn't worry too bad at first. A little later they still hadn't moved so I gave them an air bath. Today I noticed they still hadn't moved and 2 were hanging out of their shells. One of the two's siphon was also hanging out and looked swollen. I gave then 3 air baths over the course of the day and they didn't improve.  Later in the evening I decided to move them back to the original tank and see what happens. Within an hour 2 of the snails were moving around just fine. Only the one with the siphon issue didn't. 

I'm at a loss for what is going on. This tank is pretty bare because it's mostly been used to supply the breeder boxes so far. It does have colored gravel entirely because it was free. I'm convinced the "leaching toxins" thing is a myth after a lot of research. I do plan to add live plants just haven't gotten there yet. Idk why this tank is killing them.  If it was in the water I would assume it would kill the babies too but they are doing fine so I'm confused. 

Paramaters:

Ammonia:  0

Nitrite:  0

Nitrate:  5

PH:  8.2

GH:  16 API drops

KH:  14 API drops

Copper:  0

Ideas?

[CJs Aquatics]

has this tank been set up or is it recently set up?

are these snails you have bred or did they come from somewhere else?

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:02 AM, CJs Aquatics said:

has this tank been set up or is it recently set up?

are these snails you have bred or did they come from somewhere else?

It's been set up for awhile but hasn't has much of a bioload to deal with because it's only been the snabies. I got them from a couple of places online. 

On 6/23/2022 at 2:02 AM, CJs Aquatics said:

has this tank been set up or is it recently set up?

are these snails you have bred or did they come from somewhere else?

Since posting this I did notice none of the snaibies are on the sides of the box so maybe they aren't doing well or are dead. I changed the box to another tank. I've noticed 1 is moving but the rest are uncertain. 

[CJs Aquatics]

Have you dealt with issues with them before or is this something brand new going on? I’m sorry about the questions I’m trying to weigh out things it possibly could be, your parameters seem to be alright, what temp is the tank at? 

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:15 AM, CJs Aquatics said:

Have you dealt with issues with them before or is this something brand new going on? I’m sorry about the questions I’m trying to weigh out things it possibly could be, your parameters seem to be alright, what temp is the tank at? 

Don't be sorry about the questions I welcome it!

This is brand new and started right after moving them from my main tank to this one. They have been fine in the main tank. Tank temp is 72. 

Also to clarify, the large box has 2 week old mystery snails and the small has roughly 3 week old Japanese trapdoor snails. 

I have no idea if this even happened but long story short, could cat urine cause this?  Other than the ammonia in it because that would show up on testing. 

[CJs Aquatics]

This is a mystery, are they eating at all or showing any interest in food at all?

perhaps @Guppysnailcan weigh in on this one? They are very knowledgeable when it comes to snails and many other things.

what are the parameters of the tank they came from vs the one they were moved too, and what does it contain bc if I’m reading this correctly you moved them from one tank to this one and then they started to appear to decline in health? Also how did u acclimate them to the new environment?

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:25 AM, CJs Aquatics said:

This is a mystery, are they eating at all or showing any interest in food at all?

perhaps @Guppysnailcan weigh in on this one? They are very knowledgeable when it comes to snails and many other things.

what are the parameters of the tank they came from vs the one they were moved too, and what does it contain bc if I’m reading this correctly you moved them from one tank to this one and then they started to appear to decline in health? Also how did u acclimate them to the new environment?

No interest in food. All paramaters the same except the main tank typically has higher nitrates and 76 degrees instead of 72. I will be honest I've never really acclimated snails when I move them. I've never had a problem before but there is also a first time for everything. There was a couple of days between them going in the 2nd tank and showing symptoms tho. 

[CJs Aquatics]

have you changed any water since you noticed the decline in there health? Do you use any sort of ferts or chemicals in eighter tank? Honestly I’m at a bit of a loss, so In this specific situation your tank parameters appear to be ok. I have ran into issues before regarding acclimation which appeared similar to what you described but there isn’t really a way to prove or disprove this being the cause.  They are sensitive to changes in parameters which is why I was questioning you about that. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:44 AM, CJs Aquatics said:

have you changed any water since you noticed the decline in there health? Do you use any sort of ferts or chemicals in eighter tank? Honestly I’m at a bit of a loss, so In this specific situation your tank parameters appear to be ok. I have ran into issues before regarding acclimation which appeared similar to what you described but there isn’t really a way to prove or disprove this being the cause.  They are sensitive to changes in parameters which is why I was questioning you about that. 

No water change. Easy green, potassium and iron in the main tank but not the other tank. Hopefully it is just a lack of acclimation idk. I'm worried about the snabies tho now because I only see 1 moving and none are on the sides of the box but they weren't moved. 

To clarify, that's the mystery snabies. The JTS snabies appear to be fine and moving. 

Sorry adding this after the fact (I know they will merge it) I realized one thing that did change right before they started having issues is I actually did do a water change. I forgot about that. That's probably the only thing that changed right before they acted up

[CJs Aquatics]

I bought snails online before and I brought them home and threw them in a tank. They woke up after about 1 day and started to appear normal. A few days later I noticed the similar signs of lethargy, and long story short I lost a majority of them. They probably came from a different kind of water then I had (which was perfect for snails) and being that it wasn’t what they were used to, and the shipping process/ lack of acclimation they suffered some shock which they didn’t recover from. Since then and many other instances I learned a lot. I learned that with snails, Calcium is magic, and stability is key. I don’t want to give you any bad advice so I hope someone else weighs in on this with even more knowledge then me but I will tell you what I believe/ what I would do in this situation based on what has worked for me personally in the past. 
-make sure heaters and other equipment is functioning properly 

- I would add oxygen to the tank, air stone or another filter etc. not a bunch of flow I would just essentially add more oxygen in case it’s related to that bc it can’t hurt anything 

-you don’t want to stress them anymore then they already are so you should monitor lighting for a few days as well while your trying to allow them to heal

- I would do some minor water changes nothing major daily, 15-20% in case there is something in your tank causing the discomfort that isn’t seen, it will dilute it 

- add dechlorinator in case there is chlorine or chlorimines in your water (seachem prime) is what I use

- I would personally add crushed eggshells or calcium to water for them to see if it’s a deficiency causing the lethargy

- move them to one corner of the tank to make it easier to monitor if anything is working/ what the respond to (if they move around) 

 

 

[Guppysnail]

I am so sorry you are having struggles with you beautiful babies. I know how much you love them. 
 

I have seen this only a few times. Does it seem almost as if they are paralyzed and the foot seem somewhat stiff vs the normal when you touch it. Almost s if the edges still react when touched but the center does not?   I can share what I boiled my potential issues down to as a possible cause. Though these are only educated guesses through experience and eliminating all other possibilities  I could think of and after correcting the issue the issue went away.

1. starvation/malnutrition 

This is not to say you are not feeding them.  What I mean is they are not getting all the nutrients they need. A very overweight person can suffer malnutrition if not getting all the correct nutrients in their diet. We don’t know correct nutritional needs for snails. The first time I seen this I had 3 babies a friend gave me. I selected them from their tank so know they were healthy and active and a well cared for.  I started a new bare bottom tank with a seasoned sponge and plants. I did not make it one of my ugly tanks with tons of gunk squeezed from other filters, so no yummy mulm.  All 3 began doing this though I over fed and over water changed tested for everything  the only difference between these and my others at the time was an unseasoned tank  I moved these to a well seasoned tank with tons of biofilm and a good amount of algae  after 3 days 2 perked up but one was to far gone.  Once they became active I noticed their face and foot visible under their shell they looked skinny.  
 

My take away is snails are mother natures clean up crew just like shrimp. They eat dead decaying things in nature.  Bladder snails die off when the food they need is depleted shrimp need seasoned tanks with tons of bacteria so mystery snails may be the same way.  They may require things like biofilm, algae and decaying mulm the same as shrimp.  I know mystery snails I put in long running tanks get larger than ones in newer setups for me. Overly clean “sanitary” empty environments are not conducive to healthy snails for me.  That is where I first came up with my ugly fry tank idea years ago and squeeze media from other tank everywhere in the bare bottom and let it get as grossly mulm-y beautiful as I can and run hydroponics grow lights 12 hours a day until there are gobs of algae. Just because water tests correctly does not mean it is an environment conducive to aquatic life. Coincidentally my fry survival rate on fish fry more than doubled doing this. 
 

2.  Though each individual product may contain only an amount of copper that is safe (food, fertilizer etc.) all combined can be just to much and cause issues.  I’ve run into ingredient changes on foods that added copper sulfate. This is often noted by the gripping side of the foot swelling.  Again just observational trial and error. 
 

3. Plants. A few slow growing mosses or fern and anubias are not enough in my water in this house to sustain life long term where in previous homes in other states I did great with no plants. Plants purify things we as hobbiests cannot test for. I’m a visual learner so please do not be offended by my over simplification.  You spill a glass of water.  A single cotton ball (a slow growing plant) will  eventually get the job of clean up done but a paper towel is much more affective.  In situations of excess water changes a slow grower has no chance of keeping up with impurities any more than the cotton ball could keep up with repeated water spills. 
 

I hope this helps and that your babies make a speedy recovery. 
 

Edit to add…air baths work sometimes only because you are removing them from water that is saturating them with whatever is harming them. So though they appear to revive a bit being out of that water the minute you return them they again start being overcome.  I know some internet folks love air baths but I recommend against them and do them only as a last resort to see if they can revive while fix the water that is causing it. The stress added to the poor snail of being stranded away from water I can only imagine is not good.
 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Guppysnail]

On 6/23/2022 at 4:03 AM, CJs Aquatics said:

Calcium is magic

It is. But they cannot utilize it properly without magnesium. Though I have very hard water I still throw in a tiny wondershell or a few grains of epsom salt. I’m not a chemist so I don’t know ratios or any of that stuff but it seems to help. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/23/2022 at 4:55 AM, Guppysnail said:

I am so sorry you are having struggles with you beautiful babies. I know how much you love them. 
 

I have seen this only a few times. Does it seem almost as if they are paralyzed and the foot seem somewhat stiff vs the normal when you touch it. Almost s if the edges still react when touched but the center does not?   I can share what I boiled my potential issues down to as a possible cause. Though these are only educated guesses through experience and eliminating all other possibilities  I could think of and after correcting the issue the issue went away.

1. starvation/malnutrition 

This is not to say you are not feeding them.  What I mean is they are not getting all the nutrients they need. A very overweight person can suffer malnutrition if not getting all the correct nutrients in their diet. We don’t know correct nutritional needs for snails. The first time I seen this I had 3 babies a friend gave me. I selected them from their tank so know they were healthy and active and a well cared for.  I started a new bare bottom tank with a seasoned sponge and plants. I did not make it one of my ugly tanks with tons of gunk squeezed from other filters, so no yummy mulm.  All 3 began doing this though I over fed and over water changed tested for everything  the only difference between these and my others at the time was an unseasoned tank  I moved these to a well seasoned tank with tons of biofilm and a good amount of algae  after 3 days 2 perked up but one was to far gone.  Once they became active I noticed their face and foot visible under their shell they looked skinny.  
 

My take away is snails are mother natures clean up crew just like shrimp. They eat dead decaying things in nature.  Bladder snails die off when the food they need is depleted shrimp need seasoned tanks with tons of bacteria so mystery snails may be the same way.  They may require things like biofilm, algae and decaying mulm the same as shrimp.  I know mystery snails I put in long running tanks get larger than ones in newer setups for me. Overly clean “sanitary” empty environments are not conducive to healthy snails for me.  That is where I first came up with my ugly fry tank idea years ago and squeeze media from other tank everywhere in the bare bottom and let it get as grossly mulm-y beautiful as I can and run hydroponics grow lights 12 hours a day until there are gobs of algae. Just because water tests correctly does not mean it is an environment conducive to aquatic life. Coincidentally my fry survival rate on fish fry more than doubled doing this. 
 

2.  Though each individual product may contain only an amount of copper that is safe (food, fertilizer etc.) all combined can be just to much and cause issues.  I’ve run into ingredient changes on foods that added copper sulfate. This is often noted by the gripping side of the foot swelling.  Again just observational trial and error. 
 

3. Plants. A few slow growing mosses or fern and anubias are not enough in my water in this house to sustain life long term where in previous homes in other states I did great with no plants. Plants purify things we as hobbiests cannot test for. I’m a visual learner so please do not be offended by my over simplification.  You spill a glass of water.  A single cotton ball (a slow growing plant) will  eventually get the job of clean up done but a paper towel is much more affective.  In situations of excess water changes a slow grower has no chance of keeping up with impurities any more than the cotton ball could keep up with repeated water spills. 
 

I hope this helps and that your babies make a speedy recovery. 
 

Edit to add…air baths work sometimes only because you are removing them from water that is saturating them with whatever is harming them. So though they appear to revive a bit being out of that water the minute you return them they again start being overcome.  I know some internet folks love air baths but I recommend against them and do them only as a last resort to see if they can revive while fix the water that is causing it. The stress added to the poor snail of being stranded away from water I can only imagine is not good.
 

 

 

Ty so much for your time! 

They do look like you described. Almost paralyzed out of their shells exactly how you described. 

I think #1 does seem very plausible. They didn't show signs immediately but developed it over time and this tank def does not have mulm or dying plant matter or anything like that. I have some plants I can move over. I was planning on moving the water lettuce over anyway but just hadn't gotten around to it.  I JUST cleaned my filter media but I could squeeze them in there too. 

I just want to add. I did an experiment that may sound cruel but I needed answers. I put one of my other snails in the tank in question. It's currently doing fine. This confirms to me its not the water and does seem even more like #1 is the issue

[Guppysnail]

The way you describe I agree #1 is likely. And though it sounds cruel when I was learning and ruled out every thing I could think of I moved a healthy snail in as well. Just so I knew. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/23/2022 at 10:52 AM, Guppysnail said:

The way you describe I agree #1 is likely. And though it sounds cruel when I was learning and ruled out every thing I could think of I moved a healthy snail in as well. Just so I knew. 

I remember cory once saying that this hobby is largely doing experiments. It's true. You can't know til you try and this experiment ended well. The snail is doing great and I learned something to find the answer. 

[Cinnebuns]

@Guppysnail I heard rumblings of a reward thingy to give people on the forums. idk if its in effect yet. You deserve a big one for this one!  I had over a dozen people trying to figure out this stumper and you are the only one that nailed it on the head!  You gave great info too!  Ty!  My future snails thank you too because now i can care for them better. 

[Guppysnail]

@Cinnebuns thank you. The only reward I want is spending companionable fun time with great forum nerms🤗